Is it ok to be a "gentleman?"

[Ivan A.]

I have never taken a bus or train so i cant speak to it. That better?

 

Yes, thank you.

[Cofee]

No, it's not okay to be a gentleman.

You must be scumbag to everyone, everywhere and anytime because that's common sense.

[Dark Ariel7]

No, it's not okay to be a gentleman.

You must be scumbag to everyone, everywhere and anytime because that's common sense.

Why does not being a gentleman=being an asshole in your head? There is more to being agentleman than simply having common courtesy.

[Cofee]

Why does not being a gentleman=being an asshole in your head? There is more to being agentleman than simply having common courtesy.

 

Let's understand this better.

1. From your way of speaking, I'd guess that you got my sarcasm

2. Not being a gentleman=not having common courtesy=come out as rude=asshole or something very near.

[Dark Ariel7]

Let's understand this better.

1. From your way of speaking, I'd guess that you got my sarcasm

2. Not being a gentleman=not having common courtesy=come out as rude=asshole or something very near.

Again. There is more to being a gentleman than common courtesy. Common courtesy is just that, common. To be a gentleman you must go above and beyond that. So just because you are not a gentleman aka open the door for girls it does not make you an asshole OR a scumbag.

[Darklord Rooke]

People like to say that Chivalry is dead. However, chivalry is for knight to use not for the populace. There have been no knights for well over 100 years now. What they mean to say is that men no longer act in a kind and considerate manner towards women. 

Why should we? I mean it's fine to open the door for a girl if you want to but I find it arrogant when girls say things that imply that we need to open the door for them. I think women can be really arrogant like that. For example using things such as "girls first" and "you can't hit a girl".

Should girls get special treatment from men?

 

Chivalry ey? Let me post an article which deals with an interesting point.

 

Pop quiz. A professional man holds the door open for a female colleague. Is that sexist? A husband always insists on driving during tiring trips to save his wife the effort. Is that sexist? What about that nice guy on the train who stands to allow a woman he's never met to sit down. Is THAT sexist?

 

New research has sparked fiery debate over a question I've long been unable to answer. Is chivalry sexist? The study, conducted by two female psychologists from Pennsylvania State University and Phillips University Marburg in Germany, sought to examine how much people recognise sexism on a daily basis and if awareness of sexist exchanges altered their perspective.

 

Male and female colleagues were asked to record instances of both "blatant sexism" (derogatory name calling, unwanted sexual advances) and "benevolent sexism" (which includes well-intentioned behaviour or philosophies that differentiate women as needing special consideration, having feminine skills or as being vulnerable. Women needing to be protected by men or rescued first in a disaster were examples cited in the study.)

 

After becoming more aware of blatant and benevolent forms of sexism around them, women tended to view the behaviours as inappropriate. Men, however, did not believe the "benevolent" incidents were sexist.

 

<snip>

 

It's true that women are biologically different. So should they be treated as such? Part of me feels that, with monthly pains, like childbearing and perpetual double standards of womanhood, I am owed some grocery lifting, pedestal placing, and occasional spider killing by the men in my life. Likewise, certain gendered behaviours have such deep roots in romanticism - he pays on the first date, he gets down on one knee - I would truly be sad to see them go.

 

The danger, however, is if gallantry begets the notion that women are less than or need special favours in order to succeed. Men and women might subconsciously receive that message and carry it with them to their schoolyards, workplaces and marriages. If your girlfriend is too "delicate" to change a tire, is a female manager too "weak" to run your board? And if you believe that he should pay for dinner, are you more willing to accept a lower salary?

 

Because I would answer yes, that would be sexist.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/06/28/is-chivalry-sexist/

 

Now, having met many feminists who DO hold the above view I can state that this viewpoint is both real and valid. So, does this kindness reserved specially towards women have a place in a world which emphasises gender equality?

[Dark Ariel7]

Chivalry ey? Let me post an article which deals with an interesting point.

 

Pop quiz. A professional man holds the door open for a female colleague. Is that sexist? A husband always insists on driving during tiring trips to save his wife the effort. Is that sexist? What about that nice guy on the train who stands to allow a woman he's never met to sit down. Is THAT sexist?

 

New research has sparked fiery debate over a question I've long been unable to answer. Is chivalry sexist? The study, conducted by two female psychologists from Pennsylvania State University and Phillips University Marburg in Germany, sought to examine how much people recognise sexism on a daily basis and if awareness of sexist exchanges altered their perspective.

 

Male and female colleagues were asked to record instances of both "blatant sexism" (derogatory name calling, unwanted sexual advances) and "benevolent sexism" (which includes well-intentioned behaviour or philosophies that differentiate women as needing special consideration, having feminine skills or as being vulnerable. Women needing to be protected by men or rescued first in a disaster were examples cited in the study.)

 

After becoming more aware of blatant and benevolent forms of sexism around them, women tended to view the behaviours as inappropriate. Men, however, did not believe the "benevolent" incidents were sexist.

 

<snip>

 

It's true that women are biologically different. So should they be treated as such? Part of me feels that, with monthly pains, like childbearing and perpetual double standards of womanhood, I am owed some grocery lifting, pedestal placing, and occasional spider killing by the men in my life. Likewise, certain gendered behaviours have such deep roots in romanticism - he pays on the first date, he gets down on one knee - I would truly be sad to see them go.

 

The danger, however, is if gallantry begets the notion that women are less than or need special favours in order to succeed. Men and women might subconsciously receive that message and carry it with them to their schoolyards, workplaces and marriages. If your girlfriend is too "delicate" to change a tire, is a female manager too "weak" to run your board? And if you believe that he should pay for dinner, are you more willing to accept a lower salary?

 

Because I would answer yes, that would be sexist.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/06/28/is-chivalry-sexist/

 

Now, having met many feminists who DO hold the above view I can state that this viewpoint is both real and valid. So, does this kindness reserved specially towards women have a place in a world which emphasises gender equality?

A great addition to the discussion. Most people only ever think of it from one side. I like to believe that if we can keep a certain non asshole like balance then the system works.

For example, as a woman. If Men have to pay for your food and entertainment when you go out. Is it that bad that they ask you to cook when at home? Now what I mean from before is as a guy, do not take advantage. It's not like she HAS to cook. Especially every day. however I do feel that she should cook often. Things like that keep the system going, I think.

[Darklord Rooke]

As for that being sexist, it's a load of crap.  I don't think, "Oh, this woman can't open a door by herself, seeing as she's a weak and helpless woman; I'll just use my big manly muscles to open it for her,", I think, "Oh, someone is coming behind me, I better hold the door open for them."  It's just the polite thing to do, and I hold open doors for men, women, and children.  You can find sexism anywhere if you look hard enough.  When you go to that level to lash out at men, you're not a feminist, you're a misandrist.

 

Except quite a few men only hold a door open for women and the elderly, and then you have to think why only those people? Nobody's taking a stab at people who offer kindness to all (like you), but rather at the well entrenched notion in our society that a gentleman is a person who is chivalrous to women. This probably comes from the notion from a by-gone time that a gallant man is one who is chivalrous to women, but can you not find something wrong with this statement? 

 

Chivalry was a code of conduct among knights who defended, honoured and offered kindness to the weaker members of our society. Chivalry was offered to women because they were viewed to be weaker than men, so why would it be so surprising that the concept of gentlemen being chivalrous to women would rile somewhat?

 

Chivalry is offering elderly and women a seat on the bus because they are weaker than you. Chivalry is offering women, elderly and children the first place on the lifeboat because they are weaker than you. Chivalry is offering the elderly and women a sheltered spot because they are weaker than you. It's a special form of kindness reserved for those who are, well, weaker than you.

[ExiledSaber]

I had a classmate go on a rant once about how every man that ever opened a door for a woman, regardless of the situation, was a chauvinistic, sexist pig that deserved to be castrated.  The same girl said that she hated man haters because they made feminists look bad  lol  Didn't even see the irony.

 

See, the Catch 22 is, if you do things like that for women, you're viewed as being sexist, but then if you let them do it for themselves all the time, people think you're a lazy, inconsiderate jerk.  You can't really win in that regard.  Not denying that polite actions, when in regard to women, are usually rooted in sexism and the belief that men are superior, but really, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.  More people need to realize that being a feminist ≠ being a misandrist.  The definition of feminism is "equality for both genders", not "women are more equal than men".  That's from Animal Farm.  I'll be happy when things like this stop being issues.  They really don't matter as long as there's no ill will behind the action.

 

Literately had this happen to me once, had a female friend yell at me for all ways doing nice things for her like holding doors and the like. So i stopped doing it. Got yelled at for being an ass, after that we stopped being friends.

 

I have had such problems with girls like this among other things that i have largely lost the will to interact with them beyond what i need to.

[Bolverk]

I feel this "hawkish" feminism comes from the old idea that we the men are "aggressors" against the females. The feminists are "defenders" of women against the "aggressors". Which is quite true in a historical context, through the ages men have looked down at women in many ways. But it's so out of place in the society nowadays. If we men were to do something chivalric. It would be because of a culture rooted reason. Chivalric doesn't mean what it did before. It changed together with our ideas about the sexes.

Giving a seat to a old lady on the buss would be considered nice. Giving a seat to a young woman would be considered as a move trying to coax her or just plain wierd.

 

Combined with that, there is this double morale popping up all over the place. It's wrong of men to expect women to do housework for example, but we expect them to it. But if a man can't do mechanical stuff he might be considered laughable or not manly. This is about a culture that has those kinds of roles.

 

This is mostly guesswork connecting with people around me in my community. In my country Norway, my generation seems like the men should be able to do both housework well and mechanical stuff. How to fix your bike, change tires on a car, look for mechanical issues etc. How many girls around me were taught how to change tires.. If I asked around I imagine it'd be a rather low number.

As for acting gentlemanly here, depends a lot of the context. If you did act gentlemanly for your girlfriend for example. I know of multiple girls I have talked with that have said they prefer that, because it made them feel appreciated. Others girls might say it's an artifical way of acting.

 

*rant off*

[Heizei_koukousei]

All I have to say is that women are more complex than men on so many levels so its hard for men to understand

And even in developed countries women still face glass ceilings that prevent them from achievement.

Woman aren't a minority, they're a gender. Based on sex alone there is nothing that makes one gender better.

[Dark Ariel7]

All I have to say is that women are more complex than men on so many levels so its hard for men to understand

And even in developed countries women still face glass ceilings that prevent them from achievement.

Woman aren't a minority, they're a gender. Based on sex alone there is nothing that makes one gender better.

Did you seriously say that first statement?

I can maybe agree with the second but not with the first.

[sanahtlig]

Chivalry is misogyny in disguise.  Think Shirou Emiya.

[Zalor]

 

People like to say that Chivalry is dead. However, chivalry is for knight to use not for the populace. There have been no knights for well over 100 years now. 

 

Actually just to be a bit of a technical asshole knights do still exist. Anyone with "Sir" in front of their name has been knighted. From my understanding knighthoods are no longer hereditary, but if you are an English citizen and you accomplish something great you can receive a knighthood. For example Paul McCartney got knighted and his proper name ever since was Sir James Paul McCartney. Sorry I'm just obsessed with hierarchical structures and had to say this.

 

On to the actual topic: I have had some really awful conversations with some radical feminists in my school and I learned two things from those conversations. 1) To avoid the topic as much as possible, and 2) Their crazy. Almost everything is seemingly sexist. -.-

My actual views on Chivalry is that I think its good. I generally act courteously and I think people appreciate it sometimes. In fact since most people don't give a shit, it actually helps me stand out a tad bit.  

 

Also, 

 

 

Chivalry is misogyny in disguise.

Please explain.

[Ivan A.]

All I have to say is that women are more complex than men on so many levels so its hard for men to understand

 

 

That´s true, I agree with that. But it´s not a law of the world for men to understand women. I don´t understand women, and I´m sure I never will. But still, I don´t care. As I said the first time, I believe it´s all about respect. Respect those that respect you.

[Dark Ariel7]

Actually just to be a bit of a technical asshole knights do still exist. Anyone with "Sir" in front of their name has been knighted. From my understanding knighthoods are no longer hereditary, but if you are an English citizen and you accomplish something great you can receive a knighthood. For example Paul McCartney got knighted and his proper name ever since was Sir James Paul McCartney. Sorry I'm just obsessed with hierarchical structures and had to say this.

 

On to the actual topic: I have had some really awful conversations with some radical feminists in my school and I learned two things from those conversations. 1) To avoid the topic as much as possible, and 2) Their crazy. Almost everything is seemingly sexist. -.-

My actual views on Chivalry is that I think its good. I generally act courteously and I think people appreciate it sometimes. In fact since most people don't give a shit, it actually helps me stand out a tad bit.  

 

Also, 

Please explain.

Actually if you read my other post I did address that. \

 

 

Also there are no knight because there is no feudalism. I know there are still people that hold the title. People still get knighted by the queen but that does not make them knights. It is frankly an insult to the guys that dedicated all of their lives to live by the sword.

 

[Zalor]

Actually if you read my other post I did address that. \

 

Ah, sorry about that. That was totally my bad.

[ExiledSaber]

That´s true, I agree with that. But it´s not a law of the world for men to understand women. I don´t understand women, and I´m sure I never will. But still, I don´t care. As I said the first time, I believe it´s all about respect. Respect those that respect you.

 

My feelings on women:

 

 

Chivalry is misogyny in disguise.  Think Shirou Emiya.

 

True, but it seemed to have a positive effect, once saber got use to it any way.

[Slowpoke]

Here is my views on things. I'm a woman.

 

Now, its not being a "gentleman" to hold the door.

Its called not being a fucking asshole and letting the door hit someone in the face.

 

Also, if you ASK ME to dinner or somewhere else, I expect you to pay, why?

Because you asked me out. 

 

The only time I don't expect someone to pay for me is when its not a date.

If my friends invite me somewhere like to dinner but with friends, obviously I would pay for me.

 

But its just common decency to pay for the girl when you ask her out on a date.

 

But yeah, most things are just common sense, like holding the door for the person behind you.

I don't expect the guy to pull out my chair, push me in, throw his jacket over a puddle, etc.

lol that's just ridiculous.

[Dark Ariel7]

Here is my views on things. I'm a woman.

 

Now, its not being a "gentleman" to hold the door.

Its called not being a fucking asshole and letting the door hit someone in the face.

 

Also, if you ASK ME to dinner or somewhere else, I expect you to pay, why?

Because you asked me out. 

 

The only time I don't expect someone to pay for me is when its not a date.

If my friends invite me somewhere like to dinner but with friends, obviously I would pay for me.

 

But its just common decency to pay for the girl when you ask her out on a date.

 

But yeah, most things are just common sense, like holding the door for the person behind you.

I don't expect the guy to pull out my chair, push me in, throw his jacket over a puddle, etc.

lol that's just ridiculous.

The fact that you refer to them as common is part of the problem.

I did not say slam the door on any ones face. That said there is a difference in between making sure the door does not hit the guy behind you and rushing forward to open the door for a girl. If an asshole for not keeping the door open, is the other guy an idiot for not opening the door like I did?

Why the heck should I pay? Were you not going to eat that day if I did not invite you? That is just you paying for your meal like you should do anyways. You are a grown adult that ave her consent to go out to see if we like each other. I invited you but I should not have to pay you for it to.

[Heizei_koukousei]

Did you seriously say that first statement?

I can maybe agree with the second but not with the firs

You could maybe believe in my second statement? That second statement is a proven fact. Take a business class.

My first statement is my personal opinion, but is still grounded in truth.

 

 

Sorry, but that first statement is just BS. Women are more complex than men? If that's your view, what's the difference in saying that men are more complex than women?

 

In America women can be in the exact same positions that men are in. Bosses, CEOs, etc. I'm not going to pretend though that there isn't anything blocking them. While the wage gap is shrinking, it's still there. And of course, there are still more men in higher positions than women. However, that's changing rapidly. All of us are going to be running the world. We're far more liberal than the people currently running the show, so there's nothing stopping us from making things better. Eventually these old white men who are in charge will be gone, and we'll take their place. Men AND women.

This problem has been around for thousands of years. Its not going to change in our lifetimes. There have been women who ruled countries. There's always the exception. Don't take the exception and make it the norm, because the truth is far from it. Those "old white men" have ideals that won't be gone in the next generation.

 

Psychology says that the thought processes of women are more difficult to understand.

Physiology has created a female reproductive system more complex than a males.

And ill even throw in a religion card too. Women were created AFTER men. Read some Genesis. Take religion as you will but its still a historical document of the views of the time period

[Dark Ariel7]

You could maybe believe in my second statement? That second statement is a proven fact. Take a business class.

My first statement is my personal opinion, but is still grounded in truth.

 

 

This problem has been around for thousands of years. Its not going to change in our lifetimes. There have been women who ruled countries. There's always the exception. Don't take the exception and make it the norm, because the truth is far from it. Those "old white men" have ideals that won't be gone in the next generation.

 

Psychology says that the thought processes of women are more difficult to understand.

Physiology has created a female reproductive system more complex than a males.

And ill even throw in a religion card too. Women were created AFTER men. Read some Genesis. Take religion as you will but its still a historical document of the views of the time period

First off. The glass ceiling is not a proven fact rather more of supposed assumption based on surveys. Is it believeable? Yes. It could be argued, and it has, that it is because women are willing to take on lower starting wages and ask for raises less often. They are less assertive.

Though I think this part of the conversation is getting off topic.

His point is exactly the fact that it is becoming the norm. More women attend college now than males. That translates into future jobs of higher caliber.

Reproductive system says nothing for brain activity. More difficult to understand is a very relative term. More difficult for whom? I understand women about as well as men. 

Also even if I let it slide that you are using the bible to prove your point. What does the order in which they were created have to do with the complexity? I may be a satanist but I am not ignorant. I have basic knowledge of what the bible says.

[Heizei_koukousei]

Well I'll be a gentleman here.

And end this meaningless banter, since you kids clearly can't agree on any point what so ever. I will let you believe whatever it is that you will.

Good day to you

[Dark Ariel7]

Well I'll be a gentleman here.

And end this meaningless banter, since you kids clearly can't agree on any point what so ever. I will let you believe whatever it is that you will.

Good day to you

Well that is just childish. And you clearly do not know what gentleman means. That is just taking an uppity attitude and walking out in the middle of what I had presumed to be a civilized conversation. 

A chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man is what is considered a gentleman. Please do not mistake that. It is just being condescending.

[sanahtlig]

Chivalry is misogyny in disguise.  Think Shirou Emiya.

 

Also, 

Please explain.

Pretty much this snippet from Rooke's post:

 

 

The danger, however, is if gallantry begets the notion that women are less than or need special favours in order to succeed. Men and women might subconsciously receive that message and carry it with them to their schoolyards, workplaces and marriages. If your girlfriend is too "delicate" to change a tire, is a female manager too "weak" to run your board? And if you believe that he should pay for dinner, are you more willing to accept a lower salary?

When you put women on a pedestal, you're playing into gender stereotypes.  You're conforming to the notion that women are delicate, weak, need special care, need to be protected.  Sound familiar?  That's how we treat children.  Chivalry is born from a long tradition of condescension towards women.  Shirou Emiya is the prototypical male with "knight in shining armor" complex who feels it's his duty to protect the weak woman beside him--and his idiocy should be self evident.  It's one of his more glaring character faults.

 

Chivalry in VNs is all fine and dandy--as long as you recognize that it's a fictional idealization of gender roles for the purpose of entertainment.  You know, like lolis and devoted little sisters.  As for the real world, true equality means breaking free from the constraints of the outdated concept of gender roles.