Nosebleed Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 Swear this is the last logo related thread in a while I really wanted to make this thread in order to improve further contests. I want to hear what your opinions are on the rules as well as what you suggest could be done to improve. Now please read the whole post because some stuff might be answered below. I do not want to see arguing about the winner and wether or not it was fair (in fact I address that point below). This is purely to gather opinions on ruling and suggestions for further improvements. First off this was the first edition, while most people were excited for this new idea when it was proposed by solidbatman, when the contest was actually on going a lot of people were divided, some even felt like it wasn't fair. And it's exactly because it didnt go 100% smoothly that I'd like to get some feedback from you guys. I want to address 2 key issues that some users brought up multiple times. 1 - Number of votes Original post for reference Now I kept the poll single vote, this was something I set my mind on as I created the thread and, to keep it fair, I obviously did not change it midway (or else i'd have to make a new thread to eliminate bias) For future editions I might rethink the number of votes one can make, but first I want you to take this into account: When you select the "multiple votes" option in the poll settings, anyone can abuse it and vote for all entries. This was my major reason to not allow that, because I didn't feel comfortable letting people run wild in the poll. While some users had the best intention in mind, this is still a very official poll to chose the logo that will represent the forums. It just didn't seem right to me to allow that kind of freedom in the voting section. Obviously I noticed some people just wanted to vote for 2 and I think that's a completely fair opinion and I don't want to disregard it as uneeded. So this is how I thought about fixing it: First off I would set a quota of entries. I was thinking 15 would be a good number. Why? Because if the number of entries is too reduced there is no reason for wanting to pick 2 entries. It is just uneeded to want to vote for 2 when there was only 9 entries in this edition. While I get that you really liked those 2, the total number just didn't justify it, especially when the voting ended up centered around just 3 logos. However if the number is high enough it is much more justifiable to have an option to pick 2 instead of one since it's harder to pick from a larger sample. I do not see any need to have double voting if the number of entries is anything below 10. If the quota of entries is met, instead of using a poll I would instead let users vote by posting on the thread itself with the two entries they want to vote for. It'll be a bit more tedious to read through every post, but it's a staff's job to do it and I'm completely willing to do that for the sake of a better contest. There is also the possibility that with the new IPB update we can change the poll settings to allow a certain number of votes so if that could happen, that'd be great. The quota rule will still apply though. Let me know what you think on this. After further discussion, it was deemed that more than a single vote is not needed. Further contests will be single voted. This is still subject to change in the future if there's some change in the way polls work, but for now we agreed that it's better to keep it single vote. Main reason: This is a contest, the goal is to pick the banner which people like the best, therefore by allowing 2 votes it would kind of destroy the meaning of "the best" 2 - "No more lolis pls" Many people kept complaining it was completely unfair that a banner with a loli was running, because most part of the community likes lolis and thus they'd win their vote easily. And this is my reply to that: Everyone, no matter what their tastes are, is entitled to show what they like in their logo. Just because the taste matches the majority's taste, that does not make it unfair. The majority will always vote for the banner they like best, that's how the system works. If your banner didn't get the most votes, that is not unfair either, it just means the majority preferred another banner. That's how every contest will work, you shouldn't think of it as "my banner vs a loli banner" you should just see the banner with a loli as just another banner against yours and try to make yours as good as possible so you can get more votes. Advertise it! Show you're proud of it! Don't just go "well i'm against a loli so no chance I will win", that just takes away the point of this contest to begin with. I get that a lot of users here like something you don't like (for those who were complaining about lolis), but those people are part of this community and they are entitled to show their tastes and you're being oppressive by not wanting them to participate. Thus I will not ban lolis from future editions of the contest and that is final. Just keep in mind that the goal is to create a banner you're proud of, it's not meant to be a contender in a death match. And more to the point, there will always be 3 total winners. There isn't one absolute winner. So there's no reason to argue about one single banner when at least 2 other banners that had no lolis in them had a chance to be a second winner since they got the most votes. These have been 2 key issues I figured I'd address beforehand. I am open to suggestions to further improve the next contests, thus if you have something to suggest, I'm all ears (well, eyes) Nagisa_Fawkes 1
Fiddle Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 2 - No more lolis pls For a second there I thought you were banning lolis. Don't try to give me heart attacks. -_- I believe the terms you stated are as fair as possible. There's no "perfect" way to make a poll in any situation; everybody has first and second and least favorites, but there's no way to equate their likes and dislikes exactly into poll choices. The two-choice system you mentioned seems reasonable. Some of the other banners in this contest were quite good, but received zero votes. With two votes per person, at least, everything can get a fair amount of credit.
Funyarinpa Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 A question: Is it possible to create two separate polls on one thread? If it is possible, there could be winners for different categories: "most innovative"-"most revolutionary"-"Cutest Girl", etc. The winner of every category could get a different place to be shown, or serve different purposes. If a logo wins 2 or more categories, you could use the runner-ups...
Nosebleed Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 A question: Is it possible to create two separate polls on one thread? If it is possible, there could be winners for different categories: "most innovative"-"most revolutionary"-"Cutest Girl", etc. The winner of every category could get a different place to be shown, or serve different purposes. If a logo wins 2 or more categories, you could use the runner-ups... You can make more than one poll. But the purpose of the contest was to select a banner to replace the current one, I don't think we need separate categories since they wouldn't really serve any practical purpose in selecting a banner to go up. We'd have to come up with a secondary purpose for the contest, I can't really think of one though.
Funyarinpa Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 You can make more than one poll. But the purpose of the contest was to select a banner to replace the current one, I don't think we need separate categories since they wouldn't really serve any practical purpose in selecting a banner to go up. We'd have to come up with a secondary purpose for the contest, I can't really think of one though. I see. Then we could have a second poll for a second preference (if we add a "vote for the same logo twice, and your votes are null" rule, that'll sort itself out.) Hope I can help
Flutterz Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 Just a thought - if you want everyone to have, say, 2 votes, make 2 polls in the same thread with the exact same choices, and have everyone vote in both. You'd still have to check to make sure people don't vote twice for the same entry though (unless you're okay with that), but I think that wouldn't be too difficult. Edit: I guess reading what's already been posted before posting can be a good idea lol
Nosebleed Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 Just a thought - if you want everyone to have, say, 2 votes, make 2 polls in the same thread with the exact same choices, and have everyone vote in both. You'd still have to check to make sure people don't vote twice for the same entry though (unless you're okay with that), but I think that wouldn't be too difficult. Could be a simpler solution. I check all the votes anyway so this makes it easier. I might actually do that, thanks for the suggestion
Mr Poltroon Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 ...Clearly there wasn't enough advertisement. Also, I think the second issue is just plain stupid. This is a poll to decide what the majority wants. The majority wants lolis. Seems fairly simple. The minority just so happened to be part of the, well, minority. Shame on you. Now, here's the problem, IF there had been more than one loli, I can almost guarantee the choices wouldn't have been as biased as they were. As it stands, it went like this: People that didn't favour the loli banner divided among a bunch of choices, and people that favoured loli banners all gathered up on one number. That's what the anti-loli faction should've complained about. Could be a simpler solution. I check all the votes anyway so this makes it easier. I might actually do that, thanks for the suggestion Don't thank that plagiarist! Thank the guy above him. He said the exact same thing... Evidently, preferential treatment! What a sham of a mod. Funyarinpa 1
Nosebleed Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 Don't thank that plagiarist! Thank the guy above him. He said the exact same thing... They were different suggetsions. The first suggestion was for making different categories for the banners. As in: "most innovative"-"most revolutionary"-"Cutest Girl", etc. And have each banner serve a different purpose. Flutterz suggested a way to fix the multiple votes issue And I do agree the loli issue shouldn't have been an issue in the first place, but I felt like I should clarify that I will not be removing lolis from the competition. And there's no problem if there's more than one loli banner , like I said you can make whatever you like, the people will vote for which they like better. The people who don't like lolis will simply not vote for any of them. And those who like lolis may be divided, that's actually kind of a good thing since the votes will spread even amongst the lolicons. So yeah I don't see any major issue.
Mr Poltroon Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 I see. Then we could have a second poll for a second preference (if we add a "vote for the same logo twice, and your votes are null" rule, that'll sort itself out.) Hope I can help Just a thought - if you want everyone to have, say, 2 votes, make 2 polls in the same thread with the exact same choices, and have everyone vote in both. You'd still have to check to make sure people don't vote twice for the same entry though (unless you're okay with that), but I think that wouldn't be too difficult. I swear these two are saying the exact same thing. Or have I lost all sentient thought? And there's no problem if there's more than one loli banner , like I said you can make whatever you like, the people will vote for which they like better. The people who don't like lolis will simply not vote for any of them. And those who like lolis may be divided, that's actually kind of a good thing since the votes will spread even amongst the lolicons. So yeah I don't see any major issue. ... I didn't quite say there would be a problem if there were more than one loli banner. In fact, I said the quite opposite. The problem on THIS poll was that loli fans only had one choice, because only one loli banner was submitted. So in the end, there was no "major issue" for you to see. More of a comment I made about this poll, really.
Darklord Rooke Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 Your "multiple votes" idea is becoming needlessly complicated. I'd rather things be kept to a single vote, thanks.
Mr Poltroon Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 Your "multiple votes" idea is becoming needlessly complicated. I'd rather things be kept to a single vote, thanks. Personally I don't see how it'd be complicated for anyone other than the mod who has to figure it out. All YOU need to do is vote twice. Example: ---Poll One--- Nº1 - 5 votes Nº2 - 3 votes Nº3 - 0 votes Nº4 - 6 votes ---Poll Two--- Nº1 - 7 votes Nº2 - 3 votes Nº3 - 10 votes Nº4 - 3 votes (Assuming noone votes twice on the same, which would be nullified) 1st place - Nº1 with 12 votes. Runner up - Nº 3 with 10 votes.
Nosebleed Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 I swear these two are saying the exact same thing. Or have I lost all sentient thought? It seems i'm the one that misread. They did indeed refer to the same thing in the end. Well I thank Funyarinpa as well then. Your "multiple votes" idea is becoming needlessly complicated. I'd rather things be kept to a single vote, thanks. I personally would keep it single vote as well. I think that's what makes the poll interesting, the fact that you're having a hard time picking just proves there's competition, allowing you to pick more than one is a cheap way out in my opinion. But since so many people said they would prefer it if it could be at least 2 votes I'm trying to adjust the rules. This is a contest for the users of Fuwa after all, it would be wrong if I didn't listen to anyone. I'd like to know how anyone else feels about the 2 votes vs 1 vote as well. Just trying to get the general preference. Funyarinpa 1
Zodai Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 I think it's more a thing of variety than being against any specific type. Could just be that we need more creative categories - say we put something like 'fear', 'elegance' or 'death' as the category. Surely the types of entries would be much different. As for the two votes thing, I'm not sure personally. I'm okay with one on a personal standpoint, but I can't predict the thoughts of others with such clarity.
Nosebleed Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 Could just be that we need more creative categories - say we put something like 'fear', 'elegance' or 'death' as the category. Surely the types of entries would be much different. Like I said, although these ideas sound fun, they don't really serve any practical purpose to the contest. What would the winner of these separate categories get? If you can give me suggestions on that we can maybe work something out. I personally just want to keep this as a contest to select the banner that'll be on the top left corner.
Mr Poltroon Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 Could just be that we need more creative categories - say we put something like 'fear', 'elegance' or 'death' as the category. Surely the types of entries would be much different. I suppose it could indeed become more interesting with different themes. Or it could happen that everyone just ignores it My view on the matter of 1 or 2 votes is indifferent. I don't think it's cheap, because it would indubitably add more variety to the votes. Like I said, although these ideas sound fun, they don't really serve any practical purpose to the contest. I personally just want to keep this as a contest to select the banner that'll be on the top left corner. I'm starting to think you're lacking sleep at the moment. Doesn't that just mean that the entries for the top left corner had to obey a certain theme, like this one's 'Summer'?
Darklord Rooke Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 Okay, let's assume that some (but not all) people vote twice. You now have the situation where some people's votes influence the outcome more than others. Is this a situation you want? Sure, you have the option to vote twice but the reality is some people won't. So how you going to equalise matters? Make everybody vote twice? How is this any different to people voting once? What about the 3 people who want to vote 3 times, how are you going to please those dudes? My opinion is to keep things to 1 vote. Neat, tidy, people may complain but everything is simple.
Mr Poltroon Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 Okay, let's assume that some (but not all) people vote twice. You now have the situation where some people's votes influence the outcome more than others. Is this a situation you want? Sure, you have the option to vote twice but the reality is some people won't. So how you going to equalise matters? Make everybody vote twice? How is this any different to people voting once? What about the 3 people who want to vote 3 times, how are you going to please those dudes? My opinion is to keep things to 1 vote. Neat, tidy, people may complain but everything is simple. I think that's still fair, mate. If there's anybody that decides to only vote once (not that I get why they would do that) that just means that none of the other entries were good enough for them. Hence, they wouldn't want them to become the main banner. No need to equalize anything, in my opinion.
Nosebleed Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 I'm starting to think you're lacking sleep at the moment. Doesn't that just mean that the entries for the top left corner had to obey a certain theme, like this one's 'Summer'? I'm actually quite sleep deprived at the moment. You seem to have misunderstood me. People are suggesting we make several polls in the same contest for different categories. Like the most well designed or cutest girl or something. The contest has a theme but the theme is merely meant as a criteria for the banner creation. The poll itself will just be "which banner do you like best?" What they suggested were additional polls alongside that one like "which do you think had the best design?" And these additional categories serve no purpose to the contest as far as I can see. Edit: Now that I re-read it I understood the difference. Dear god I am sleep deprived. The contest should stick to one theme. I don't think having more than one theme is practical. We're not trying to have all sorts of entries, we're trying to follow one theme. Okay, let's assume that some (but not all) people vote twice. You now have the situation where some people's votes influence the outcome more than others. Is this a situation you want? Sure, you have the option to vote twice but the reality is some people won't. So how you going to equalise matters? Make everybody vote twice? How is this any different to people voting once? What about the 3 people who want to vote 3 times, how are you going to please those dudes? My opinion is to keep things to 1 vote. Neat, tidy, people may complain but everything is simple. I fully agree with you, Rooke, I prefer the idea of a single vote a lot more than multiple votes. I was just thinking of maybe extending to 2 votes if we had a large number of entries that would justify "picking just one is too hard" that people complained about in this contest. I would never extend it to more than 2 votes though. It would indeed be a problem on how some would only vote once. We could enforce a rule that says everyone must vote twice if it comes down to it, like I said i check every vote. I know i'll never be able to please everyone, nor was that in my mind, i'm just trying to see what the majority thinks is best, i'm trying to make these contests the way the users want them, keeping in mind a fair reasoning of course, hence why I suggested a solution to something people complained about.
Mr Poltroon Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) People are suggesting we make several polls in the same contest for different categories. Like the most well designed or cutest girl or something. Funyaripa certainly was, but not Zodai, I don't think. Lookie here: Could just be that we need more creative categories - say we put something like 'fear', 'elegance' or 'death' as the category. Does that seriously look like he means that he means something like this: Which banner is best at transmiting the idea of death? Which banner is the most fearsome? Which banner is the most elegant? All in the same contest? I don't think so... Surely the types of entries would be much different. See that? That means he's not speaking about the categories for a contest, but the theme. Because the categories in the contest don't have anything to do with the type of entries, if it were categories it could even be decided after the entries were already in. It would indeed be a problem on how some would only vote once. We could enforce a rule that says everyone must vote twice if it comes down to it, like I said i check every vote. Alright, I don't see what said 'problem' is. It's not like someone's vote is worth less just because they only voted once. If they only wanted 1 of the banners to win then their vote is worth as much as someone who wanted two different banners to win. It's not like they can vote on the same one twice. Let's look at a practical example, shall we? Imagine Persons A, B, C and D ---Poll One--- Nº1 - A; C Nº2 - B Nº3 - D; ---Poll Two--- Nº1 - Nº2 - A; D Nº3 - Results: Winner - Nº2 with 3 votes. Runner up - Nº1 with 2 votes. A wanted 1 and 2 to win. B wanted 2 to win. C wanted 1 to win. D wanted 3 and 2 to win. From this situation, explain what the unfair bit is. I don't get it, really. If this particular example doesn't show the problem, make your own, I really want to understand this. Edited July 25, 2014 by Tiagofvarela
Nosebleed Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 I know i'm sleep deprived and didn't notice the second was different. I edited my post with an explanation now. We won't have more themes for entries. It will stay single themed. We want the contests to be individual, that's the purpose of the theme. And there is a problem when some people vote once and others vote twice. You're voting for one banner and not giving any other any chance for a voting (when there's a 2nd poll clearly made for it) which would make things unbalanced since the banners are not being given equal treatment by everyone. Each time you leave a blank 2nd vote you are disregarding the opportunity of one other banner getting a vote. That is unbalanced no matter how I look at it because some people will vote for a second and others wouldn't, meaning there will be banners with less opportunity which is unfair. That's why there'd have to be a way to make sure people voted twice if we were to have 2 votes. With all this complication regarding 2 votes, it's making me more inclined to just keep it single vote like I originally planned to be honest.
Lewycool Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 I feel like the logo's should be relevant to the theme/contest *cough* *cough*
Nosebleed Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 I feel like the logo's should be relevant to the theme/contest *cough* *cough* I plan on being more strict with this rule in further contests. I also felt like some didn't fit in this edition but I was seeing how things went. Again, first edition, testing the waters. Next time I'll ask to write about how your banner represents the theme and judge from that. Even if the banner has clear elements from the theme I want you to at least point them out just for the sake of equal treatment. I feel like this'll be the best way to enforce the theme.
Mr Poltroon Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 Edit: Now that I re-read it I understood the difference. Dear god I am sleep deprived. The contest should stick to one theme. I don't think having more than one theme is practical. We're not trying to have all sorts of entries, we're trying to follow one theme. Again, it might be useful to actually read what Zodai wrote. say we put something like 'fear', 'elegance' or 'death' as the category. What do you think the coma and the 'or' mean? It means that they aren't all for the same contest, he's giving examples of potential themes for various contests. 1 theme per contest. Or do you actually plan to have all the contests with the same theme? I prefer the 1 vote as well after all a contest is a contest and you should just pick the one you like the most As I said before, I don't care either way. I just seem to enjoy contradicting people, must be my avatar... But, if we were to use Nosebleed's example... First off I would set a quota of entries. I was thinking 15 would be a good number. With 15 entries, we have about 80 people voting, judging by the last poll. With 15 entries, it's really easy for the votes to be really divided and even (but the total opposite could happen, loads of them could be left empty with no votes). That's why the 2nd vote was suggested. In either case, the 2nd vote would help. And there is a problem when some people vote once and others vote twice. You're voting for one banner and not giving any other any chance for a voting (when there's a 2nd poll clearly made for it) which would make things unbalanced since the banners are not being given equal treatment by everyone. Each time you leave a blank 2nd vote you are disregarding the opportunity of one other banner getting a vote. That is unbalanced no matter how I look at it because some people will vote for a second and others wouldn't, meaning there will be banners with less opportunity which is unfair. That's why there'd have to be a way to make sure people voted twice if we were to have 2 votes. I see, it wouldn't be unfair to the voters, it would be unfair to the banners. I didn't even consider that. ... I still think it's fair, but I'm tired of thinking so I might come to my senses later. Or make the counter argument then.
Lewycool Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 I plan on being more strict with this rule in further contests. I also felt like some didn't fit in this edition but I was seeing how things went. Again, first edition, testing the waters. Next time I'll ask to write about how your banner represents the theme and judge from that. Even if the banner has clear elements from the theme I want you to at least point them out just for the sake of equal treatment. I feel like this'll be the best way to enforce the theme. Fair enough. Glad you understand and are doing something about it.
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