What are you playing?

[LemiusK]

428 Shibuya Scramble - First Thoughts (No Spoilers)
Finally, 428 Shibuya Scramble has been released in ENGLISH! I remember this being quite high on my wish list because of its many endings. Initially, I was disappointed to find out that it only had so many endings because they were Bad Ends, but after playing it a little bit, the bad endings were actually meaty enough that they weren't just some superficial "You Died" game over screen like many of the bad ends in Corpse Party: Blood Drive. If anything, these endings bear more resemblance to School Days' format, though SD obviously still triumphs in terms of the amount of endings and branches.

And having devoted quite a few days into this game, I must admit... I became quite addicted. I mean, it's strange, because I prefer visual novels with lots of branches like Clannad and School Days, but there's a satisfying feeling of piecing together the proper route to continue the story. That feeling just kept me playing, making this novel a real page-turner, especially when the intensity of the mystery keeps ascending to new heights, each time block adding new and shocking twists. But most of all, I think the characters being this interesting really helped keeping me glued.

When it comes to the characters, admittedly, a few of them were a little bit dull at first. Osawa was the one I initially thought I wouldn't really care about, but his comedic banter with Kajiwara and his emotional love for his children did win me over quickly. Plus, his story added that ominous and sinister atmosphere such an intense mystery needed. I also thought Kano's story would have been blend as well, considering he's just your average shounen protagonist (hot-headed, reckless, has a good heart), but I still couldn't help but be won over by his earnestness in wanting to do the right thing, and his naivety getting the better of him was an interesting subversion as well not commonly seen in shounen stories, with his colleagues calling out on his foolishness. Kano's story also picked up a lot near the end, making me more invested and interested in his route. I really enjoyed his character growth over the course of the story, how he mellowed over time and became more self-aware.

Then there's Tama, my favorite route at the beginning because... well, she's a cute cat. The costume was adorable, especially that cute little dance she does in the character selection screen. There's not a lot I could share about Tama without spoiling anything, but I'll say her route's a lot of fun, keeping things light amidst all the intensity. It's a real shame when her story ended, however. I was so surprised it ended so early because I wanted to see more of her story. Minorikawa is probably my third favorite character, ranking just behind Tama and Kano respectively. All stories like these need a witty comic relief, and he was it. Plus, his route had quite a few tearjerking moments too due to characters he interviewed opening up to him (Yanagishita's confession really got to me).

There are a few peeves I had, but they're mostly minor in nature. For starters, Achi was my least favorite character. There's nothing inherently wrong with his character, but he just didn't feel as unique, even when compared to Kano, whom I had expected to be the generic anime protagonist. I guess it's because he didn't grow much, maybe? His character arc is largely consisted of protecting that someone, so it got kinda old quite fast due to the lack of variety. I would've preferred to see him dealt with the S.O.S. a lot more.

Then there's the gameplay. I bear a love/hate sentiment towards the gameplay. On one hand, the incorporation of the butterfly effect into the gameplay was a lot of fun, because your choices will have a lot more impact on the story, which is why I highly recommend not to follow the walkthrough on Fuwanovel during your first playthrough of each time block. What this means is that for each time block (13:00-14:00, 14:00-15:00, etc.), just play it through and picking whatever options you like at first, and only refer to the walkthrough when you get stuck in trying to complete each entire time block. I say this because I felt like I lost that sense of intensity and interaction when I played it with a walkthrough. My choices didn't feel as important when I could just refer to some game guide. So yeah, don't do that.

That said, the complexity of such a gameplay does lead to annoyances. Quite a number of the "cause-and-effect" are kinda... absurd. Certain actions that you pick have consequences that are arbitrary and would probably only happen in real life due to a stroke of bad luck, so it did break the immersion a little bit. I don't mind the joke endings because they can be kinda funny (except C.A.T.S. maybe; that one felt dumb), but arbitrary consequences that lead to bad ends can make me face-palm a few times. Thankfully, these were few and far between.

Finally, there's the music. A few of these can be annoying when they're on a loop, but some of the more emotional ones like "Echo" and "Hope" were good enough that the soundtrack deserves a listen. Good music can really amplify tearjerkers up to eleven, and Hideki Sakamoto has done a good job in his composition here. I also enjoyed Tama's theme a lot. It's peaceful and relaxing, which felt fitting for her adorable cat persona but then turned oddly surprising when you find out about her real personality later on. lol

I haven't quite finished the entire game yet (currently in the midst of the 17:00-18:00 block), but I'm already lamenting that the story is coming to an end. It felt kinda short, to be honest, since I managed to almost complete it in a number of days, but I could understand why due its live-action sequences, which looked expensive to make for a visual novel (especially when you consider that the acting seems professional). Still, it's kinda a shame. I wouldn't mind playing a whole week of this. lol The intensity, the drama, the twists and turns, and me piecing together all of that in hopes that people could be saved; man, it's a blast. Drama like this just feels a lot more fun when you're a part of it. I don't think I would be as addicted if there were either no choices, or if this was just an ordinary TV drama.

Parting Note: I know there's an anime sequel for this game, which I've already added to my Plan-to-Watch list on MyAnimeList, but I highly doubt I would have as much fun due to me being a passive viewer instead of an active player in moving things along. Still, I suppose it's worth checking out. Accidentally found out about the anime's premise just a few hours ago, so I kinda spoiled myself a little bit on how 428 is likely going to end. Oh well. That's why you shouldn't read anything about the VN you're reading online, folks. After this is over, I think I might just hop on over to Kara no Shoujou since I heard it's also a thriller mystery with many choices and bad ends.

Just one more thing. I know that this VN was untranslated for a long time 'till Steam came along (or Spike Chunsoft, I guess) and make it accessible for everyone else. It's nice to see that VNs like this are given proper translations nowadays thanks to the effort of larger companies (as opposed to independent fan-patches), and reading works that were previously inaccessible or not fully translated like Muv-Luv and Kimi Nozo is now a reality. Really can't wait for that latter title to be translated, actually, especially when I heard how massive the game was and how many routes and branches it has.

Edited November 3, 2018 by LemiusK

[Inorin]

1 hour ago, LemiusK said:

Parting Note: I know there's an anime sequel for this game, which I've already added to my Plan-to-Watch list on MyAnimeList, but I highly doubt I would have as much fun due to me being a passive viewer instead of an active player in moving things along. Still, I suppose it's worth checking out. Accidentally found out about the anime's premise just a few hours ago, so I kinda spoiled myself a little bit on how 428 is likely going to end. Oh well. That's why you shouldn't read anything about the VN you're reading online, folks.

I made the same mistake as you (googling the anime before I even completed the game), but I can assure you that I enjoyed the ending nonetheless.

1 hour ago, LemiusK said:

After this is over, I think I might just hop on over to Kara no Shoujou since I heard it's also a thriller mystery with many choices and bad ends.

KnS is more of a thriller-utsuge, with the mystery part being almost non-existent, since the murderers are very easy to predict. It's still a very good read though, so I wish you all the best (in holding back your tears)! Oh, and before I forget, it is probably recommended (but not compulsory) to have completed Cartagra first, since it provides some context for the story in KnS.

1 hour ago, LemiusK said:

Just one more thing. I know that this VN was untranslated for a long time 'till Steam came along (or Spike Chunsoft, I guess) and make it accessible for everyone else. It's nice to see that VNs like this are given proper translations nowadays thanks to the effort of larger companies (as opposed to independent fan-patches), and reading works that were previously inaccessible or not fully translated like Muv-Luv and Kimi Nozo is now a reality. Really can't wait for that latter title to be translated, actually, especially when I heard how massive the game was and how many routes and branches it has.

Yeah me too, but I think the Muv Luv Photon series has to at least be first released before any real progress can be made.

Edited November 3, 2018 by wei123

[LemiusK]

30 minutes ago, wei123 said:

KnS is more of a thriller-utsuge, with the mystery part being almost non-existent, since the murderers are very easy to predict. It's still a very good read though, so I wish you all the best (in holding back your tears)! Oh, and before I forget, it is probably recommended (but not compulsory) to have completed Cartagra first, since it provides some context for the story in KnS.

Thanks! I'll be sure to check out Cartagra first.

Oh god, almost finished the 17:00-18:00 block of the game but... dammit. I cried so much. Three times, in fact. I wonder if I'll have enough tears left for KnS. lol I didn't expect how emotional 428 would be but dammit. That sad violin music really didn't help. The strong character writing for even the minor side characters really, really didn't help either. And this is coming from a VN without voice! Through the live action images and the heartfelt music alone, the VN could pull off such a feat is nothing short of amazing. I might leave a rating of 10/10 for this one. Superb experience.

Edited November 3, 2018 by LemiusK

[snowbell55]

I've been trying to continue with The Fruit of Grisaia but tbh I am not really enjoying it for some reason, and whenever I try and read, I find my mind wandering and I wind up doing something else after only 20 or so minutes. I really don't know what the cause is though and it's disappointing considering I'd been looking forward to reading the VN for quite a while. To try and get past this I've decided to stop reading for a bit and get back into Majikoi. I've already finished the Miyako and Chris routes, though my saves for those got eaten somehow, so I'm doing the Kazuko route. I'm going to do Momoyo next then Mayucchi, then redo Chris and Miyako. I'd forgotten how funny and relaxing it is - I just decided to read it on a whim last night and already I've spent maybe 2 and a half hours reading it. The characters are great and it just somehow manages to be fun to read and keep me engaged. Hopefully the route winds up being a good one.

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by snowbell55

[adamstan]

1 hour ago, snowbell55 said:

I'd forgotten how funny and relaxing it is - I just decided to read it on a whim last night and already I've spent maybe 2 and a half hours reading it. The characters are great and it just somehow manages to be fun to read and keep me engaged. Hopefully the route winds up being a good one.

Yeah, after a while I really got used to them, like they were my friends too, or like I was one of them. Very nice atmosphere. True route is great as well. As for girls - all were nice, but I think I loved Miyako the most

 

But, after some time I started to skip some parts of the H-scenes, as they started to be somewhat tiring. They went a little over the top with them for my taste But still, I rate Majikoi very high. I'm curious how will JAST's localization turn out.

Edited November 4, 2018 by adamstan

[snowbell55]

11 hours ago, adamstan said:

Yeah, after a while I really got used to them, like they were my friends too, or like I was one of them. Very nice atmosphere. True route is great as well. As for girls - all were nice, but I think I loved Miyako the most

 

But, after some time I started to skip some parts of the H-scenes, as they started to be somewhat tiring. They went a little over the top with them for my taste But still, I rate Majikoi very high. I'm curious how will JAST's localization turn out.

Yeah exactly! :D. They really nailed the atmosphere. Have you read S or any of the fandiscs? Hahaha good choice. I'm partial to Miyako as well (though she's a bit crazy XD) though Chris isn't so far behind. Still waiting to see what the other routes are like but somehow the characters are consistently well done and none of them really feel like supporting characters, even if they only show up every now and then. 

And OMG - the scene where (Kazuko route spoilers)

Spoiler

Kuki, Yamato, and Gen-san confess to Kazuko! Bahahahahaha! I was expecting some heartfelt confession but this is completely ridiculous and hilarious and it's like something out of a daytime soap opera hahahahaha. And then the bit about vegetable juice!

My sides! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! I've been laughing for about 5 minutes straight and it's *still* funny :D.

Edited November 5, 2018 by snowbell55

[adamstan]

16 minutes ago, snowbell55 said:

Have you read S or any of the fandiscs?

Yeah, I read everything that got translated so far, meaning S, A1 and A2. They're pretty good too.

[LemiusK]

Sigh. Just got to the R18 scene of Muv-Luv Alternative...

Sigh. Sigh. Should really have stuck with the All-Ages version. This is just so damn stupid.

I mean, I've seen my share of hentai, so I'm not squeamish or anything, but it does break the immersion. Makes it all feel like one big parody.

You know, if I didn't know any better, I would've thought Nasu was the one who wrote this, given how Heaven's Feel turned out. Guess the rumor that many Japanese VN writers are closet perverts isn't that far from the truth.

Personally, I hate censorship for the most parts, but in some cases, I would actually favor the All-Ages version when the sexual parts don't add anything to the story (Key's VNs like Clannad comes to mind), or when they even detract from the story. This is definitely one of those cases.

Edited November 6, 2018 by LemiusK

[Thyndd]

12 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Sigh. Just got to the R18 scene of Muv-Luv Alternative...

Sigh. Sigh. Should really have stuck with the All-Ages version. This is just so damn stupid.

I mean, I've seen my share of hentai, so I'm not squeamish or anything, but it does break the immersion. Makes it all feel like one big parody.

Yup, I remember when I got to that part I felt pretty much the same, and wrote a very similar post to yours. I've actually read both the All Ages and the 18+ version of that scene, and yeah, I probably prefer the all ages version not because it shows less, but just because it feels a lot less over the top. 

On a side note, I believe it's probably because we've seen our share of messed up hentai that the scene felt like a parody to us  I've heard that to other people it just felt like a very disgusting scene and didn't break the immersion at all. 

[adamstan]

On 6.11.2018 at 7:25 AM, LemiusK said:

I would actually favor the All-Ages version when the sexual parts don't add anything to the story (Key's VNs like Clannad comes to mind), or when they even detract from the story. This is definitely one of those cases.

Welcome to the dark side (or maybe this is light side? dunno... )

Clannad itself fortunately didn't have +18 version (apart from Tomoyo After), but it is true for other Key VNs. The only one where h-scenes were passable was ONE (it wasn't under KEY label, but same people involved). Kanon's scenes were awful, AIR's weren't good either - fortunately all-ages patches exist for both of these. Same with LittleBusters.

Edited May 31, 2019 by adamstan

[LemiusK]

15 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

On a side note, I believe it's probably because we've seen our share of messed up hentai that the scene felt like a parody to us 

 

I know exactly what you mean, hue hue hue...

Ah, damn, it's so weird. Even when I'm satisfying myself, tentacles just plain put me off. I just can't relate to the idea of

Spoiler

being satisfied by slimy tentacles,

period. It totally felt like I was reading an entirely different story by that point, even when you consider all the horrific gore stuff that came before.

 

15 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

I've actually read both the All Ages and the 18+ version of that scene, and yeah, I probably prefer the all ages version not because it shows less, but just because it feels a lot less over the top. 

So the All-Ages version still showed the stupid h-stuff, just more censored? Damn, I was hoping it would replace the entire scene and overhaul it with new content, like what Key did with h-scenes. IIRC, Key didn't just censor the h-scenes, they replaced them with brand new scenes that added more to the story.

Edited November 6, 2018 by LemiusK

[Thyndd]

2 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Ah, damn, it's so weird. Even when I'm satisfying myself, tentacles just plain put me off. I just can't relate to the idea of being satisfied by slimy tentacles, period. It totally felt like I was reading an entirely different story by that point, even when you consider all the horrific gore stuff that came before.

Yeah, well, it's not like it's intended as a scene you could get off to anyway  The IDEA of the scene made sense for me and it was indeed very disturbing, it's just the execution with all the hentai cheap hentai tropes that totally turned me off, which leads to:

5 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

So the All-Ages version still showed the stupid h-stuff, just more censored? Damn, I was hoping it would replace the entire scene and overhaul it with new content, like what Key did with h-scenes. IIRC, Key didn't just censor the h-scenes, they replaced them with brand new scenes that added more to the story.

Yes, kind of. The biggest difference is that obviously they don't show nudity and the descriptions are a lot more "sober", if you might. So, while the exact same thing happened (and I wouldn't want it otherwise, as censorship should never change the story facts), it left much more to your imagination. Twizzlers still sponsored the scene though.

 

[LemiusK]

11 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Yeah, well, it's not like it's intended as a scene you could get off to anyway  The IDEA of the scene made sense for me and it was indeed very disturbing, it's just the execution with all the hentai cheap hentai tropes that totally turned me off, which leads to:

Yes, kind of. The biggest difference is that obviously they don't show nudity and the descriptions are a lot more "sober", if you might. So, while the exact same thing happened (and I wouldn't want it otherwise, as censorship should never change the story facts)

 

Well, yeah, I get that. I understand what the writer's trying to tell me too, but... yeah, the execution was definitely off-putting, to say the least.

I think the biggest reason this puts me off is because of the sexist implication it has. I mean,

Spoiler

why wasn't Takeru pleasured instead? Why weren't other males given the same form of pleasure? Why go down the generic and lazy route of having Kagami succumb to the pleasure like some cheap hentai? It almost assumes that only women can succumb to pleasure like some sex-craved machine.

It just felt cheap and lazy IMO. And if the All-Ages version doesn't change that, then I don't think it fixed anything in terms of the writing. It's a tired stereotype in hentai, kinda like how the "wise old sage" is a tired stereotype among western perception of Chinese culture (hence the "whitewashing" of Dr. Strange). If anything, it almost makes me wonder about the Japanese's perception of women in general... I mean, I've heard a few things myself regarding Japanese sexism.

Edited November 6, 2018 by LemiusK

[Thyndd]

1 minute ago, LemiusK said:

Well, yeah, I get that. I understand what the writer's trying to tell me too, but... yeah, the execution was definitely off-putting, to say the least.

I think the biggest reason this puts me off is because of the sexist implication it has. I mean,

  Reveal hidden contents

why wasn't Takeru pleasured instead? Why weren't other males given the same form of pleasure? Why go down the generic and lazy route of having Kagami succumb to the pleasure like some cheap hentai? It almost assumes that only women can succumb to pleasure like some sex-craved machine.

It just felt cheap and lazy IMO. And if the All-Ages version doesn't change that, then I don't think it fixed anything in terms of the writing.

While it will still feel like an excuse...

Spoiler

If I remember correctly the Takeru from the alternative world had already died by that point, while trying to protect Sumika when the BETA attacked them. I know there's no way to convince you, because I know myself that the fact that the one subjected to sexual experimentation was Sumika was deliberate, but yeah... I mean, is it not the same for most VNs out there anyway? 

In any case, aside from the poor execution, the trauma and the guilt the poor girl must've been left with is perfectly understandable, so if I were you I'd look on the bright side and think of the powerful implications it has for the story and characters.

 

[LemiusK]

1 minute ago, Thyndd said:

 

  Hide contents

because I know myself that the fact that the one subjected to sexual experimentation was Sumika was deliberate, but yeah... I mean, is it not the same for most VNs out there anyway? 

 

Hm. I'm guessing that by "deliberate," you're referring to story spoilers I haven't know yet. Guess I'll not probe further if that's the case.

Though I'm not sure what you mean by "the same for most VNs out there."

[Thyndd]

1 minute ago, LemiusK said:

Though I'm not sure what you mean by "the same for most VNs out there."

The thing is, you bring up the fact that Sumika and not Takeru or other male characters are "sexualized", and while the story might offer you some excuse for it (like the harem setting in MLA, explained by the fact that most men already died when they first went to war), in the end it's plain obvious that the reason is just that the target demographic for most eroges are males, and guess what, a great part of that collective happens to like women  Sex sells, everyone knows that.

So, I wouldn't try to read too deep into it. I don't think it's necessarily sexism, just good ol' sex stuff as a selling point.

[LemiusK]

12 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

The thing is, you bring up the fact that Sumika and not Takeru or other male characters are "sexualized", and while the story might offer you some excuse for it (like the harem setting in MLA, explained by the fact that most men already died when they first went to war), in the end it's plain obvious that the reason is just that the target demographic for most eroges are males, and guess what, a great part of that collective happens to like women  Sex sells, everyone knows that.

So, I wouldn't try to read too deep into it. I don't think it's necessarily sexism, just good ol' sex stuff as a selling point.

Then I'm even more disappointed. lol For such a highly-acclaimed series, it still follows the overused formula of other mainstream eroge/hentai. I mean, I understand to a certain extent that the Japanese's perception of sex is more open-minded than the western culture, and they're less inclined to squirm away from the subject like it's some taboo, but still... it's kinda disappointing that Muv-Luv wouldn't rise above that after all the deconstruction it did towards other eroge/harem. You might call them excuses (like the fact that most men already died), but for me, I felt like those were clever subversions of harem stories that made sense of an otherwise clearly illogical and unrealistic setting. Even the explanation about the combat suits being transparent was quite logical and clever,

Spoiler

especially when you take into account that their combat suits were modified to be less transparent when they graduated.

So for the VN to take two steps forward and one step back, that's just disappointing.

I honestly hope that Alternative would offer another one of those "excuses" to explain away such a bizarre behavior of the BETA that doesn't feel as... eye-rolling.

Edited November 6, 2018 by LemiusK

[Thyndd]

1 minute ago, LemiusK said:

Then I'm even more disappointed. lol For such a highly-acclaimed series, it still follows the overused formula of other mainstream eroge. I mean, I understand to a certain extent that the Japanese's perception of sex is more open-minded than the western culture, and they're less inclined to squirm away from the subject like it's some taboo, but still... it's kinda disappointing that Muv-Luv wouldn't rise above that after all the deconstruction it did towards other eroge/harem. You might call them excuses (like the fact that most men already died), but for me, I felt like those were clever subversions of harem stories that made sense of an otherwise clearly illogical and unrealistic setting. So for the VN to take two steps forward and one step back, that's just disappointing.

You are just too negative my dude. I think Muv Luv is simply brilliant for being able to deconstruct the genre like that, while still exploiting all its commercial benefits. Plus, really, you'd be hard-pressed to find stronger female characters than the ones in MLA. If one thing is left very clear is that those girls are first and foremost warriors, the bravest you'll come across. And they are still young girls deep inside who due to the unfortunate circumstances don't get to experience a normal life like the one they had in the world Takeru came from.

While it uses the same formula, the message it tries to convey holds so much more meaning. I can't see anything wrong with that.

[LemiusK]

16 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

You are just too negative my dude. I think Muv Luv is simply brilliant for being able to deconstruct the genre like that, while still exploiting all its commercial benefits. Plus, really, you'd be hard-pressed to find stronger female characters than the ones in MLA. If one thing is left very clear is that those girls are first and foremost warriors, the bravest you'll come across. And they are still young girls deep inside who due to the unfortunate circumstances don't get to experience a normal life like the one they had in the world Takeru came from.

While it uses the same formula, the message it tries to convey holds so much more meaning. I can't see anything wrong with that.

Well, I'm not condemning the entire story just because of that one scene, obviously. Don't get me wrong. But the way you explained it to me, that the scene served as mere commercial purpose, that did dampen the experience a bit, not to mention taking away from the heartfelt message you're praising. Almost makes the message hypocritical since it's associated with the superficial desire of making a profit.

But like I said, I'm not condemning the entire story for a single scene. Much like Mass Effect 3 and its controversial ending, there's plenty of good that outweighs the bad. Just take that as you will.

That being said, I'll just say that plenty of other VNs succeed without resorting to sex, like the one I just praised a few days ago, 428 Shibuya Scramble. There's not a single ecchi scene in that, period. It's not an impossible task to succeed without selling sex. IIRC, Corpse Party, in spite of its blood and gore, also didn't have any ecchi scenes. Steins;Gate was pretty wholesome too, minus a few lewd jokes.

Also, you have to take into consideration how the sex scenes were used in other eroge. Take for example, Grisaia no Kajitsu. It does have plenty of sex scenes, but those make sense because the protagonist was in love with the girl, so it's a good way to convey their romance like that through a sex scene. But the one with the BETA in Muv-Luv, however, gave the BETA an added motivation when they included that scene.

Spoiler

It turned them into generic tentacle monsters.

The first case didn't detract anything from the context of the story because it fitted right in. The second one added context which affected the story in a lazy way. There's a difference.

Hell, even School Days' sex scenes made a certain amount of sense in the context of the story because some of the main characters were clearly turned into deranged psychopaths by the events of the story. The genre didn't take an extreme shift because of the sex scenes.

Edited November 6, 2018 by LemiusK

[Thyndd]

4 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Well, I'm not condemning the entire story just because of that one scene, obviously. Don't get me wrong. But the way you explained it to me, that the scene served as mere commercial purpose, that did dampen the experience a bit, not to mention taking away from the heartfelt message you're praising. Almost makes the message hypocritical since it's associated with the superficial desire of making a profit.

Actually let me explain myself better, because I'm noticing some misunderstandings which are most likely my fault 

I don't believe (or rather, I don't WANT to believe lol) that THAT particular scene was done with commercial purposes in mind. As I said, most people will be disgusted while reading it. It's just that it's in line with the eroge formula and cliches. You find yourself satisfied with the excuses for the harem setting and the transparent suits, because they are clever explanations that make what otherwise would be just dumb cliches sensible, don't you? I don't think that particular scene is any different. It's not that it's there to sell by itself just because it's sex related; it's another cliche of the genre being given a reasonable excuse to exist in that story. Muv Luv is in and of itself a very clever genre deconstruction, with all the tropes that the genre entails... while still benefiting from that overused formula to lure people into its claws.

[LemiusK]

9 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Actually let me explain myself better, because I'm noticing some misunderstandings which are most likely my fault 

I don't believe (or rather, I don't WANT to believe lol) that THAT particular scene was done with commercial purposes in mind. As I said, most people will be disgusted while reading it. It's just that it's in line with the eroge formula and cliches. You find yourself satisfied with the excuses for the harem setting and the transparent suits, because they are clever explanations that make what otherwise would be just dumb cliches sensible, don't you? I don't think that particular scene is any different. It's not that it's there to sell by itself just because it's sex related; it's another cliche of the genre being given a reasonable excuse to exist in that story. Muv Luv is in and of itself a very clever genre deconstruction, with all the tropes that the genre entails... while still benefiting from that overused formula to lure people into its claws.

You see, the problem is... the scene with the BETA right there was a cliche itself, a cliche of ALL hentai that involves monsters in general. That's not a clever subversion at all! And unless there's a clever subversion down the line I'm not made aware of yet, then I don't think it's the same thing as what subversion they did for the transparent suits and harem setting. This is like the opposite of those subversions.

Again, it's really just one scene, so it's not like I'm THAT affected by it. I just wanted to point it out, that's all. It's a small peeve, but it's honestly not that big of a deal.

Honestly, this felt like that scene with Nae in Steins;Gate (that they cut out in the anime), the one that was so over-the-top that it felt like it was made for shock factor. It was an annoying flaw in an otherwise perfect VN, but that didn't mean I hated Steins;Gate for it. I still love it.

Edited November 6, 2018 by LemiusK

[Thyndd]

12 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

You see, the problem is... the scene with the BETA right there was a cliche itself, a cliche of ALL hentai that involves monsters in general. That's not a clever subversion at all! And unless there's a clever subversion down the line I'm not made aware of yet, then I don't think it's the same thing as what subversion they did for the transparent suits and harem setting. This is like the opposite of those subversions.

Again, it's really just one scene, so it's not like I'm THAT affected by it. I just wanted to point it out, that's all. It's a small peeve, but it's honestly not that big of a deal.

You know, as I said, it's not like I'm a big fan of that scene as it's written either... though I do like the concept. You see, the thing with the deconstructions is that you need to first incorporate the thing you want to deconstruct. Instead of focusing on what makes it similar, think about what makes it different. Why is it different the harem setting in Muv Luv to other settings seen in so many other works? Why are the transparent suits suddenly acceptable? I believe it's the new implications they have. 

Spoiler

Muv Luv takes the idea of a harem and twists it. Now suddenly you've got a postapocaliptic world where men have already nearly gone extinct. 

Skimpy outfits to give the player some eye candy? Here they are just practical clothing for battle in order to detect wounds AND a way to make women get rid of any shame during their military education. They are no longer women, they are soldiers who must even give up their lives if they are ordered to.

Some tentacle rape where the girl misteriously ends up enjoying the inter-species sex? Arguably more polemic, and I think poorly executed in comparison with the rest, but the implications are still very different to the norm. If you are willing to accept that the BETA would find human sexuality interesting and would try to experiment with it (which you know, it's somewhat plausible... at least we know they did other experiments with other people too), then you now have a reason for Sumika to at least physically enjoy those stimuli, even though mentally she obviously found that absolutely repulsive. That contradiction between her body and her mind ended up breaking her psyche and causing a profound self-hatred. Yes, the cliche is there, but I don't think you'll ever see a cheap hentai with the heavy implications this scene has, and in that sense it's different, not in form, but in meaning.

 

[LemiusK]

12 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

You know, as I said, it's not like I'm a big fan of that scene as it's written either... though I do like the concept. You see, the thing with the deconstructions is that you need to first incorporate the thing you want to deconstruct. Instead of focusing on what makes it similar, think about what makes it different. Why is it different the harem setting in Muv Luv to other settings seen in so many other works? Why are the transparent suits suddenly acceptable? I believe it's the new implications they have. 

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Muv Luv takes the idea of a harem and twists it. Now suddenly you've got a postapocaliptic world where men have already nearly gone extinct. 

Skimpy outfits to give the player some eye candy? Here they are just practical clothing for battle in order to detect wounds AND a way to make women get rid of any shame during their military education. They are no longer women, they are soldiers who must even give up their lives if they are ordered to.

Some tentacle rape where the girl misteriously ends up enjoying the inter-species sex? Arguably more polemic, and I think poorly executed in comparison with the rest, but the implications are still very different to the norm. If you are willing to accept that the BETA would find human sexuality interesting and would try to experiment with it (which you know, it's somewhat plausible... at least we know they did other experiments with other people too), then you now have a reason for Sumika to at least physically enjoy those stimuli, even though mentally she obviously found that absolutely repulsive. That contradiction between her body and her mind ended up breaking her psyche and causing a profound self-hatred. Yes, the cliche is there, but I don't think you'll ever see a cheap hentai with the heavy implications this scene has, and in that sense it's different, not in form, but in meaning.

 

Okay, that's the explanation I was looking for. lol I would react with the "Like" button, but I've hit my reaction quotas for today.

Yeah, okay, when you put it that way, it does make the scene a bit more tasteful. Buuuuut yeah, I'd still say the execution is poor because

Spoiler

another cliched part is that women are susceptible to sex and become horny in spite of being raped. THAT's the cliched part that I couldn't stand. If other men (doesn't even have to be Takeru) were raped in this way too by the BETA, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. It's more of a problematic implication because of what details they excluded rather than what they included. That's why it's so hard to write a good rape scene in a story without being condescending and insulting to real rape victims, and why many writers refrain from it.

But yeah, you're right, other hentai titles wouldn't even bother to include such meaningful context in their sex scenes, so it does elevate Muv-Luv above them. You're right. It's kinda like what Saya no Uta did for the gore scenes, or what Spec Ops: The Line did for the FPS element. In fact, it's a lot more like what School Days did with the harem setting. Thanks for the explanation.

Edited November 6, 2018 by LemiusK

[Stormwolf]

Lol.. all i think when i read this is that the scene is a desperate fetish scene for rape/ntr lovers where they madr some silly reason to make it somewhat fit. But likely, if thwy removed the scene the experience would be no worse. in fact it would likely be much better. Many people just cant think outside of the box and what they've been presented. The scene fit and that means that its perfect and no alternatives would work. But the fact is that most story driven vns dont need sex at all. 

[Decay]

It's a legendarily bad scene. I had actually just finished MLA a few days ago after starting it in freaking 2014 (it's taken a while...). When I got to that scene last week I was flabbergasted. I knew everyone was calling it bad, but I didn't expect it to be THAT bad. There are dozens of different ways you can tackle that sort of storyline, and they chose the worst possible one, lmao.