What is the appeal of ecchi comedy where the MC gets brutalized?

[Ryuk211]

VNs often have this kind of fanservice where the protagonist gets physically abused for simple misunderstandiings.  I have always disliked it and don't find it funny in tbe least. 

Having said this,  there are obviously people who like this kind of ecchi comedy.  So can someone explain explain it's appeal to me? 

 

Btw I like fanservice as long as the MC doesn't get brutalized.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Ryuk211

[Stormwolf]

Im just assuming people who enjoy it to be the lowest of the low lifeforms on this planet. You know, the ones who loves getting their balls popped by women in high heels, or in general "yes" men in life.

[Clephas]

Slapstick comedy is slapstick comedy.

[Dreamysyu]

For some reason, Japanese comedies are often very cruel towards their protagonists, and it happens not only in harems. Mental abuse is just as common.

[Stormwolf]

On 9/28/2021 at 9:56 AM, Dreamysyu said:

For some reason, Japanese comedies are often very cruel towards their protagonists, and it happens not only in harems. Mental abuse is just as common.

But thats the thing isnt it. It's often very cruel and lacks any comedic punch. It just feels like abuse for the sake of abuse. When protagonist does something stupid and gets punched for it then i get it and it can be funny in the right circumstances, but that's often the case. Sometimes he gets punched black and blue for no reason at all really and it's supposed to be soooo funny.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Stormwolf

[Bredan]

It's not a VN problematic, but sadly a big part of 'otaku' culture. I don't agree with the fact that's it's just comedy ; it is to me very linked to the same roots as the tsundere thing (especially 2nd generation), super heroines that are stronger than their male counterparts if those are even present (everywhere now, from swordwomen, magical girls to even Yamato Nadeshiko and idols that have become the super heroines of the non-fantastical tales) and even NTR. For me, this is also linked to the famous 'beta' MC.

This culture is (was ?) largely a male thing, and as cliché as it may seem, males that have no or few good relations with women. There is no reason to expect sane male/female relations in general... there's a lot for me to like in this culture, but this aspect is what makes me often drop some VNs, animes etc.

EDIT : I may be foolish... but I've even sometimes asked myself if that could be somewhat linked to the lack of birth in Japan. That's a problem shared by most rich countries, but seem heavier there compared to other ones. You may laugh at me ^^.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Bredan

[Black99]

Japanese culture... The nips likes that, so they will make more of then. Trying to understand each other culture living in other country is useless. 

[Ryuk211]

16 hours ago, Bredan said:

It's not a VN problematic, but sadly a big part of 'otaku' culture. I don't agree with the fact that's it's just comedy ; it is to me very linked to the same roots as the tsundere thing (especially 2nd generation), super heroines that are stronger than their male counterparts

Yeah, I just wish the entire modern tsundere trope would die out already.  I refuse to read a VN if it has even one modern tsundere.  This archetype really gets on my nerves because there's nothing 'strong' about these characters. They are just mentally unstable idiots who lack  any semblance of common sense. As someone who likes fanservice, but hates pathetic beta MCs, I have to be very selective with what I consume.

That  said, I have a soft spot for well-written classic tsunderes. 

[Bredan]

Yeah, the classic tsundere can be an appeal for even those that aren't immersed in the otaku culture, if well written. Not only female tsundere by the way.

It evolves, it changes, but, because it is rooted in some deep things, it will probably never disappear. I don't want to write and think about it the whole day, but for me it can mostly be simplified in those lines :

 - feeling of inferiority towards females (sometimes in contradiction with a feeling of superiority towards other subjects, or even a strange mix of inferiority and superiority complex towards females) ;

 - add to that over-sexualization and sexual frustration (you can freely alternate 'sex' and 'love' in this one).

=> you obtain almost all the above mentioned. Of course, it's over simplified, but the core is there for me.

[Ryuk211]

6 hours ago, Bredan said:

- feeling of inferiority towards females (sometimes in contradiction with a feeling of superiority towards other subjects, or even a strange mix of inferiority and superiority complex towards females

I think this really is the heart of the matter right here. Despite being portrayed as absurdly strong,  modern tsunderes somehow lack the mental capacity to think rationally about awkward situations.  this indicates that no matter how 'strong' these characters are, they still fear the male protagonist on some level.

 

[nihilloligasan]

2 hours ago, Ryuk211 said:

I think this really is the heart of the matter right here. Despite being portrayed as absurdly strong,  modern tsunderes somehow lack the mental capacity to think rationally about awkward situations.  this indicates that no matter how 'strong' these characters are, they still fear the male protagonist on some level.

 

we can take this analysis a step further by seeing that in this case, the tsunderes are actually being portrayed as weak. i think there's another key aspect to this in that the brutalization is always portrayed as a joke-their "abuse" actually isn't a big deal or worth taking seriously. there are a lot of reasons why this could be the case (e.g., double standards with gender in regards to abuse), but regardless of these reasons, we can see a trend in which the focus is on the tsundere's violence being "broken down" and revealing her deredere side due to the mc's influence over her. the satisfaction comes from the fact that the tsundere's development is entirely based around pleasing the ego of the mc (for being nice) and fulfilling the fantasy of a girl who hates you secretly being deeply in love with you. in a way, the physical violence could be a flanderized way of representing that. essentially, no matter how vicious the tsundere is, she will always be "tamed" by the mc in the end. this also isn't just a thing in japanese media btw, the idea of an aggressive or defensive woman eventually being made submissive due to the influence of a male mc is a pretty common trope throughout the world (hence my use of the word "taming", like in shakespeare's taming of the shrew).

this is is mostly an aside, but i also think it's curious how yanderes rarely ever get the same flak despite being just as, if not more abusive. a part of me thinks it has to do with the fact that the more visibly unpleasant aspects seen in tsunderes (violence towards the mc for example) are not as readily apparent. yanderes are automatically said to construct their entire egos and motivations around the mc, so they do more to immediately serve the mc's interests.

this video does a pretty good job analyzing the narrative roles of tsunderes imo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBtu5oEM1Tg

Edited October 2, 2021 by nihilloligasan

[Bredan]

9 hours ago, nihilloligasan said:

this is is mostly an aside, but i also think it's curious how yanderes rarely ever get the same flak despite being just as, if not more abusive

Yanderes are far fewer than tsunderes. They can't even try to compete. I don't like most tsunderes but it would be easier to tolerate them if they appeared less. There's also (often) a big difference between yanderes and tsun : often, the yandere will show her (his) affection toward the subject while the tsundere will try to hide it to the death (especially modern ones since they will mainly remain tsun).

Also, many tsunderes are seen (inworld that is) as acting normaly. A tsun throwing you though the window because you accidentally touched her boobs will just be seen as normal by other characters (especially other females) : that is insufferable for me, that's creating a 'normalcy' that is too irrational and inconsistency in many characters (that should point out how violent and irrational the tsun is but almost never do). While yanderes will often be frowned upon at least by some characters.

Finally, I can't really say if that's a reason or not, but while they are mostly insufferably irrational, tsunderes still seem closer to reality than yanderes (I've seen irrational and violent people being angry with their loved ones, but I've never seen someone trying to use a chainsaw against their love rivals ^^) : it may be easier to tolerate something 'fantastic'.

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Bredan