A conversation about the TSF's in Muv-Luv.

[Godskrieg]

I have a little problem with the TSF's in Muv-Luv because they seem utterly useless and to have no justification for being there instead of being "cool". Anything that's done on the surface with TSF's seems utterly useless, with the heavy metal clouds shouldn't it be possible to just shell them by sea until the surface is clear? Or after the heavy metal clouds shouldn't air support be able to completely wipe them out? Inside the hives themselves the laser class don't even do anything and the tunnels seem big enough to just send helicopters inside and big tanks or something. You can even use drones, or even unmanned tanks or giant unmanned tanks if the regulars are too small and weak, to preserve the population of humanity. Is there any actual reason for the TSF's being there except the fact that "robots are cool"?

When I was reading Alternative this kind of ruined the entire experience for me, I love the world itself and the story is ok, but the TSF's just ruin it.

[Deep Blue]

You are thinking it too hard in my opinion in one part they do explain why they dont use tanks as their primary weapon of defense/offense against the BETA (which they do use in some operations and they do deploy a tons of tanks and another types of military weapons and vehicles)

[LinovaA]

Well it is a mecha, therefore... there is going to be mecha. What is the point of mecha you ask? To scratch the itch of "robots are cool". If you don't like mecha... well Muv Luv Alternative was probably a bad choice.

[Godskrieg]

That's my problem with sci-fi's in general, unlike fantasy a lot of justification is stupid as hell, while fantasy can just say "its magic".

Second of all I really like the TSF's, they seem pretty cool and i'd love to have one like them myself. It just feels as there is no good justification and that a better job with it could have been done.

[Flutterz]

Well it is a mecha, therefore... there is going to be mecha. What is the point of mecha you ask? To scratch the itch of "robots are cool". If you don't like mecha... well Muv Luv Alternative was probably a bad choice.

Pretty much this, AFAIK there's really no reason to use humanoid robots (as opposed to things like drones, which are kind of like robots) for battle except "robots are cool".

[GetterEmperor]

Most of those are pretty ineffective against the BETA since they're slow and the BETA's strength comes from their insane numbers so they'd just be sitting ducks. Also, If I recall correctly TSF's are made for maneuverability so they can avoid the BETA onslaught so I don't really think they're entirely useless. Though they are pretty cool haha.

[Deep Blue]

btw

the BETA weren't fighting the humans at all, they didn't even consider the humans as a life form. It wasn't a fight or anything they were extracting resources from the planet and nothing more.

[crunchytaco]

Why don't they have TSF drones?

Because in their world, they didn't have time to develop video games for fun. Which is probably why they didn't think of piloting drones to kill shit like it was a video game. 

[Nerathim]

Personally I really don't understand the need to explain surnatural or uncommon phenomena in stories that definitely don't need an explanation, seriously what is the point if it's not a key element in the plot like Umineko for instance? I'm sure a lot of writers are aware that most of readers want a reason for everything that exists and that isn't in the real world. Because of that they're wasting time to just make up something that would look like a tad bit credible when it's not relevant at all. What is relevant is the message that the author wants to convey, it shouldn't be obstructed by superficial things imo.

Has someone needed an explanation about the device used for lightsabers to appreciate Star Wars? Same thing.

[Scars Unseen]

Credit to xthorgoldx on /r/visualnovels/ for what is probably going to be the most detailed in-universe answer:

 

 

You have to remember that, in the Muv-Luv universe, we are not fighting humans - we're fighting BETAs. Their combat tactics, their weaponry, their very mindset is fundamentally alien to humans. This means that, moreso than any war in the history of mankind, the fundamental tenants of warfare itself have changed.

 

Look at, say, the state of airpower in 1860. Yes, we had "air forces" in 1865 - balloon corps count. Now, show a General from 1865 an F-22 Raptor and, after they overcome the cultural shock, they'll ask why it's practical - so an F-22 can fly faster than sound and drop big bombs. It'll take out, what, maybe one infantry regiment? Or it can blow up a bridge - why? The infantry can just wade the river or march around, and you can blow up the bridge for cheaper with conventional explosives.

 

In the current state of human-based warfare, we see the application of tanks and helicopters because they're good at fighting human weapons. They're force multipliers that are only effective in certain situations - a helicopter will give you a critical advantage only if you can use it properly.

 

With this in mind, experience in the war against the BETAs has proved conventional human warfare tactics to be poor performers. Air assets get shot down, and BETA weaponry can overpower that of a tank fairly easily. So, what's the solution for mechanized ground forces? If you can't "tank" the damage, dodge it entirely. The utility of a TSF is threefold:

 

1. Replaces conventional armor with more mobile, evasive units
2. Fulfills infantry-level squad roles with modular weaponry
3. Reduces casualties overall (TSF Crew: 1; M1 Abrams Crew: 4)

 

Now, this assumes that the technology capable of producing TSFs (MMIs, advanced robotic servos, etc) exists and is economically viable - otherwise, as ineffective as tanks are in the MuvLuv universe, we'd have to keep using those since they'd be the most viable (relatively) of our options.

 

Now, why not use drones? Well, for starters, computer tech in the Unlimited worldline is... oddly anachronistic (they've got mechs and retinal displays, but no LCDs). It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to presume that the underlying technologies for drone use - namely advanced software systems, remote telemetry systems, and the like - just haven't been developed (even in Earth Prime, we're only just starting to see human-equivalent drone aircraft, and those are bleeding edge military tech that's been funded out the ass for decades). Furthermore, the basic tactic for taking on Hives - your aforementioned heavy metal cloud - is fundamentally disruptive to drone systems, as it disables communications. Fully autonomous drones are way beyond the tech that even the Alternative worldline has, because at that point you're looking at quasi-strong AI.

 

Now, why are heavy metal clouds not wholly sustainable ways to annihilate BETAs?

 

1. Distance bombardment only works for the surface defenses. There's a reason bunkers are build underground - the Earth is a tough sunuvabitch, and even a nuclear bunker-buster would have a tough time putting a dent in a Hive. As it stands, SOP for Hives is to bomb the shit out of it with AL munitions before sending the TSFs to clear the tunnels.
2. The laser-class don't see use in tunnels because we don't send in anything that would require their use - if you started sending in helicopters (BAD IDEA, I don't even want to think of the vortexes you'd generate in there), the laser BETAs would open up.
3. Heavy metal clouds obscure visual, infrared, and radar - any air support you send would be crippled in its targetting measures.
4. As mentioned by /u/The_Dvls_Advocate, heavy metal clouds only mitigate, not eliminate, laser class effectiveness - they help artillery get through, but not all air forces.
5. Heavy metals are literally environmental cancer. Sure, we use them in the name of "not going extinct," but using them results in more deaths long-term than using TSFs - sure, you may lose 1,000 soldiers to combat now, but it's better than 100,000 dying of starvation/heavy metal poisoning down the line.

 

tl;dr

 

So, why TSFs?

 

1. Conventional vehicles, like aircraft and tanks, are incompatible for use against BETA weaponry and tactics. Aircraft are moot due to the laser class, and no armor can reliably shrug off BETA weaponry, which means that vehicles that can dodge shots rather than endure them are more valuable.No matter how much you bomb it, underground facilities are pretty much indestructible from the outside.
2. Something has to go in and clear the tunnels, and it's not going to be infantry or tanks.
3. They're giant fucking robots, who doesn't want giant fucking robots.