Social Justice with Sana-chan

The sole point of someone becoming offended over a word is wrong enough to start with.

Blessed are those, who don't give a damn.

27 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

The sole point of someone becoming offended over a word is wrong enough to start with.

Blessed are those, who don't give a damn.

Nowadays, verbal insults are the most common forms of aggression. Bullying, arguments, humiliation, all those usually come through verbal attacks. Sure, there are people who are less susceptible to it, but I don't know anyone who doesn't care or isn't emotionally affected at all by verbal attacks. If you don't, you are a very lucky person. Too bad other people aren't like you. 

Can I feel offended by people that with mightier-than-thou attitude that tell others how to conduct, express or clothe themselves? (You have to ask others for permission nowadays since it is now current year and you really don't want to get on the wrong side of the internet by using words everybody uses)

11 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Can I feel offended by people that with mightier-than-thou attitude that tell others how to conduct, express or clothe themselves? (You have to ask others for permission nowadays since it is now current year and you really don't want to get on the wrong side of the internet by using words everybody uses)

Well, you shouldn't. First, because I'm not telling you how to conduct, I'm giving an advice so that you can make some people's lives better. Second, because, unless you are disabled, you're benefiting from your privilege within a society with institutionalized ableism. In other words, your situation is a hundred times better than those that are actually suffering.  

You know saying that disabled people have it worse is offensing

2 hours ago, Narcosis said:

The sole point of someone becoming offended over a word is wrong enough to start with.

Blessed are those, who don't give a damn.

Guess you haven't heard of words like nigger, spic, chink, cracker, etc. Some words hold actual power over people. Even more so if those words are associated with a history of hate and making others feel like they're less than human.

Edited January 2, 2017 by bigfatround0

45 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

You know saying that disabled people have it worse is offensing

No, it's not. It's a fact. And we need to recognize it in order to help those people.

1 minute ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

No, it's not. It's a fact. And we need to recognize it in order to help those people.

Facts can't be offensive?

I just had a talk about this with disabled people yesterday. I believe them not you.

1 hour ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Nowadays, verbal insults are the most common forms of aggression.

People need to separate the idea of 'insulted' and 'offended'. If I 'insult' someone, that person may feel 'offended', but that doesn't mean if someone is offended that they were insulted. This is because an 'insult' refers to the intent of the offender, whereas being offended refers to the emotions of the offendee. The two words are often mixed together to do away with the pesky idea that some people just go around looking to be offended, and catering to these people is sometimes more trouble than it's worth.

There's nothing insulting about using the word 'blinded'. It denotes 'not being able to see', so blinded by fear means not being able to see clearly due to you being such a timid tabby. It's an excellent descriptive word that often has no prejudice behind it. That people are offended by this is only natural, because some people are offended by anything. Case in point, the other day at the supermarket the lady in front of me had such an overpowering body odour that it assaulted my senses. This, I found, was quite offensive and caused me to move to another aisle. Alas, it did not give me the right to spritz her copiously with perfume.

And I'm not going to stop calling people stupid when they're being stupid because it offends those with intellectual problems. It's, once again, an excellent descriptive word.

The idea of institutionalised ableism is perfectly normal. Countries are about growth and coming out on top in that international competition countries are locked in with each other. The more they win, the more resources they nab for its people. Same deal with businesses. Countries and businesses will look for the best people to carry out certain tasks, certain work, and preference will naturally go to those more able because these people are often able to more effectively carry out these tasks. The up side of this is that society is now in a position to adequately care for the disabled, unlike in the past where they were often killed off for being a drain on resources, and we got to this point partly by being terribly ableist. Society is interested in getting as far away from nature as possible, nature is all about survival of the fittest (because life was harsh and you needed to be tough to survive) and is not a nice place. These days we're cushioned away from real life enough that we can provide for those less fortunate. 

I regularly use all except for words 3, 11, 12, and 13. However I'm an aspiring writing, and writers are taught not to be too PC in their writing ...

Great post as always Sana-sama

1 hour ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

No, it's not. It's a fact. And we need to recognize it in order to help those people.

IMHO suffering is relative and you can't say who has it worse without being in that person's shoes first. Some disabled people have lived their whole lives like that and don't know any different, so they don't feel like they are limited at all. Being careful and tip-toeing around those people might only offend them, as they might prefer to be treated like everyone else instead.

ah another post of someone speaking for someone else. classy.

 

getting offended is a choice believe it or not as is writing all of this that will no doubt not change anyones pov.

Your brains should implement some more sane space, you beta liberal. 

2 hours ago, Kiriririri said:

Facts can't be offensive?

I just had a talk about this with disabled people yesterday. I believe them not you.

You're saying those people told you they were in a better or equal social position compared to able-bodied individuals?

2 hours ago, Darklord Rooke said:

People need to separate the idea of 'insulted' and 'offended'. If I 'insult' someone, that person may feel 'offended', but that doesn't mean if someone is offended that they were insulted. This is because an 'insult' refers to the intent of the offender, whereas being offended refers to the emotions of the offendee. The two words are often mixed together to do away with the pesky idea that some people just go around looking to be offended, and catering to these people is sometimes more trouble than it's worth.

There's nothing insulting about using the word 'blinded'. It denotes 'not being able to see', so blinded by fear means not being able to see clearly due to you being such a timid tabby. It's an excellent descriptive word that often has no prejudice behind it. That people are offended by this is only natural, because some people are offended by anything. Case in point, the other day at the supermarket the lady in front of me had such an overpowering body odour that it assaulted my senses. This, I found, was quite offensive and caused me to move to another aisle. Alas, it did not give me the right to spritz her copiously with perfume.

Comparing a lady with a bad odor with using a part of oppressed people's bodies with negative connotation is not a fair comparison. The latter is an attack that is personally harmful and reinforces the disadvantageous position some people have, and the former is a just small discomfort. @bigfatround0 made a pretty good comparison. 

@Darklord Rooke, what I'm trying to say here is that if you don't have to sacrifice much to avoid offending some people, then do so. There isn't much sacrifice in avoiding certain words. Noone will even notice, in case you care about your surroundings' opinions on you. So, if it will make some people feel better, why not do it?

2 hours ago, Darklord Rooke said:

And I'm not going to stop calling people stupid when they're being stupid because it offends those with intellectual problems. It's, once again, an excellent descriptive word.

It's funny how you, in one paragraph, tells me how an 'insult' is different from an 'offense', implying that the former is always bad and the latter is sometimes just nitpicking; and, in another paragraph, you insist on using a word to insult people, claiming it's an "excellent descriptive word".

2 hours ago, Darklord Rooke said:

The idea of institutionalized ableism is perfectly normal. Countries are about growth and coming out on top in that international competition countries are locked in with each other. The more they win, the more resources they nab for its people. Same deal with businesses. Countries and businesses will look for the best people to carry out certain tasks, certain work, and preference will naturally go to those more able because these people are often able to more effectively carry out these tasks. The up side of this is that society is now in a position to adequately care for the disabled, unlike in the past where they were often killed off for being a drain on resources, and we got to this point partly by being terribly ableist. Society is interested in getting as far away from nature as possible, nature is all about survival of the fittest (because life was harsh and you needed to be tough to survive) and is not a nice place. These days we're cushioned away from real life enough that we can provide for those less fortunate. 

What exactly are you implying here? That we should stop trying to eliminate ableism from our society because it's 'normal'? Or that we should do that, as we are in a position in which we are able to do so? I'm confused.

44 minutes ago, Barktooth said:

IMHO suffering is relative and you can't say who has it worse without being in that person's shoes first. Some disabled people have lived their whole lives like that and don't know any different, so they don't feel like they are limited at all. 

Humans usually want to be equal to their surroundings. When everyday they see that they can't do a lot of tasks most people can, I don't think they won't feel "limited", at least to some extent.

46 minutes ago, Barktooth said:

Being careful and tip-toeing around those people might only offend them, as they might prefer to be treated like everyone else instead.

That's why my advice is to avoid those words not only around disabled people, but around everyone else as well.

43 minutes ago, mitchhamilton said:

ah another post of someone speaking for someone else. classy.

I'm mentally disabled, you know. I'm autistic. Thus, I'm not 'speaking for someone else'.

40 minutes ago, Palas said:

I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED YOU DIDN'T USE THE ASTERISKS

Asterisks? What are you talking about?

39 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said:

you beta liberal. 

Don't see how trying to raise awareness for disabled people is considered being "liberal".

Mad props for being able to stick to your guns even though it's pointless to argue with these types of people. They're the same kind as those that blame everything on the mythical  SJW.

^^^  "beta liberal" lol that's fucking hilarious. I'm not sure a beta can call others beta.

Edited January 3, 2017 by bigfatround0

16 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

I'm mentally disabled, you know. I'm autistic. Thus, I'm not 'speaking for someone else'.

booo hoo, are you also blind, paraplegic and crazy? my sister has the mentality of an 8 year old because she was born way too early, and my cousin is confined to a wheelchair until the end of his short life. i couldnt care less how people use words that might offend them unless it was directed at them because like rooke pretty much said, its the intent behind the words not the words themselves.

 

9 minutes ago, bigfatround0 said:

Mad props for being able to stick to your guns even though it's pointless to argue with these types of people. They're the same kind as those that blame everything on the mythological SJW.

just as its pointless for him to post this stuff on fuwa where nothing will change because of it.

3 minutes ago, mitchhamilton said:

booo hoo, are you also blind, paraplegic and crazy? my sister has the mentality of an 8 year old because she was born way too early, and my cousin is confined to a wheelchair until the end of his short life. i couldnt care less how people use words that might offend them unless it was directed at them because like rooke pretty much said, its the intent behind the words not the words themselves.

 

just as its pointless for him to post this stuff on fuwa where nothing will change because of it.

Wait so if getting offended really is a choice, why would your sister or cousin get offended? And why would you get offended? Doesn't seem like you think it's a choice when it comes to your family. Kind of a double standard don't you think?

I agree that it's pointless and I even mentioned it...

Edited January 3, 2017 by bigfatround0

4 minutes ago, mitchhamilton said:

booo hoo, are you also blind, paraplegic and crazy? my sister has the mentality of an 8 year old because she was born way too early, and my cousin is confined to a wheelchair until the end of his short life. i couldnt care less how people use words that might offend them unless it was directed at them because like rooke pretty much said, its the intent behind the words not the words themselves.

Why is it so hard to simply police yourself to avoid some words? It won't hurt anyone, as opposed to keep on using them, which will actually hurt some people.

Also, I'm pretty sure the intent, as you say, behind most of those words is almost never good. Stupid, retarded, mad, crazy, etc are almost always used as a form of insult or verbal attack.

2 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Why is it so hard to simply police yourself to avoid some words? It won't hurt anyone, as opposed to keep on using them, which will actually hurt some people.

fine, do that, i couldnt care less. i will admit i dont like using those words but that doesnt mean i need to think everyone else does.

3 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Also, I'm pretty sure the intent, as you say, behind most of those words is almost never good. Stupid, retarded, mad, crazy, etc are almost always used as a form of insult or verbal attack.

you need more friends then as i have mostly been exposed to these words as nothing but in jest.

8 minutes ago, bigfatround0 said:

Wait so if getting offended really is a choice, why would your sister or cousin get offended? And why would you get offended? Doesn't seem like you think it's a choice when it comes to your family. Kind of a double standard don't you think?

I agree that it's pointless and I even mentioned it...

because its their choice to get offended? im sorry, should i use smaller words?

17 minutes ago, mitchhamilton said:

because its their choice to get offended? im sorry, should i use smaller words?

What if I called your sister retarded and your cousin a cripple? No doubt at least your cousin would get offended. But would I be able to say "Just kidding lol" and make it all better? No because words hurt and most people don't have a choice when it comes to getting offended. Maybe you do but then again, you seem like normal person. Well, about as normal as a beta can be.

Edited January 3, 2017 by bigfatround0

58 minutes ago, Palas said:

I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED YOU DIDN'T USE THE ASTERISKS

It would be l*me if Sana used them. You must be b*ind if you didn't see that coming.

 

21 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Humans usually want to be equal to their surroundings. When everyday they see that they can't do a lot of tasks most people can, I don't think they won't feel "limited", at least to some extent.

That's why my advice is to avoid those words not only around disabled people, but around everyone else as well.

Sure, some of them will feel limited, but some won't. It depends on the person. Rin in Katawa Shoujo is a good example, she doesn't think not having arms is a disadvantage to her at all.

Even if one avoids these words around everyone else, they would still be acting this way for the sake of the disabled, so I think it may offend certain people regardless. Or maybe not, at this point I don't know anymore.

In either case, while I can't speak for anyone else, to me the usage of the words you listed plays a big role in whether they are perceived as "ableist" or not. If I call someone crazy, I'm simply trying to convey that they are acting in an irrational and nonsensical fashion, not that they are mentally disabled, or that their behavior stems from having a mental illness. The expression might have originated from someone likening a person acting nonsensically to the behavior of mentally disabled individuals, but the way it is used now, I don't believe such a link exists anymore.

In short, if you are mentally disabled but aren't going berserk on anyone, I won't call you crazy. However, if you're mentally healthy yet having a fit, I might just do so.

27 minutes ago, mitchhamilton said:

you need more friends then as i have mostly been exposed to these words as nothing but in jest.

But those jests only work because they revolve around the notion that those words are used as insults.

Imagine if your name were being used as an insult. When people were angry they would say: "Are you fucking [Insert your name here]?!". And then, when they were among their peers they would say: "You're [Insert your name here], lol." I know it's definitely not the same thing, but your name is a part of your life and who you are just like disabilities are a part of our lives. 

20 minutes ago, Barktooth said:

Sure, some of them will feel limited, but some won't. It depends on the person. Rin in Katawa Shoujo is a good example, she doesn't think not having arms is a disadvantage to her at all.

Except she is a fictional character. Even if she does exist in someone's body (I've never seen anyone who claimed being her, tho), this body is probably abled, and that's why she thinks like that.

Also, it's not like their emotional suffering always comes from the fact that they feel in disadvantage. It's because they feel different to other people; and when it's hard to fit in society, we usually get sad.

20 minutes ago, Barktooth said:

Even if one avoids these words around everyone else, they would still be acting this way for the sake of the disabled, so I think it may offend certain people regardless. Or maybe not, at this point I don't know anymore.

Some people (a group probably much smaller than those who would be offended if those words continued being spoken) would only feel offended if they knew someone was purposefully avoiding that. I don't believe anyone would notice that, tbh.

20 minutes ago, Barktooth said:

In either case, while I can't speak for anyone else, to me the usage of the words you listed plays a big role in whether they are perceived as "ableist" or not. If I call someone crazy, I'm simply trying to convey that they are acting in an irrational and nonsensical fashion, not that they are mentally disabled, or that their behavior stems from having a mental illness. The expression might have originated from someone likening a person acting nonsensically to the behavior of mentally disabled individuals, but the way it is used now, I don't believe such a link exists anymore.

In short, if you are mentally disabled but aren't going berserk on anyone, I won't call you crazy. However, if you're mentally healthy yet having a fit, I might just do so.

I'm not saying you're ableist for using those words. But even if your intentions are good, you would still be using a part of someone's identity and life in a negative connotation, which would only further emphasize their disadvantageous position in society. It's hard to give an example to someone who isn't in such a position, but look at the "name" example I gave to mitchhamilton above. 

17 minutes ago, Palas said:

Hey Big Name I Can't Ever Hope to Memorize, what do you think of Katawa Shoujo

Haven't played it yet, sorry.

Edited January 3, 2017 by *anoyoruniyakusokushita

28 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Except she is a fictional character. Even if she does exist in someone's body (I've never seen anyone who claimed being her, tho), this body is probably abled, and that's why she thinks like that.

I was simply using her as an example. I'm convinced there are people in the real world who think the same way. If you don't believe this to be the case, then that is where we disagree. You can try to convince me otherwise, maybe I'm wrong - but I'm not sure if it's possible to prove one way or the other.
 

Quote

Also, it's not like their emotional suffering always comes from the fact that they feel in disadvantage. It's because they feel different to other people; and when it's hard to fit in society, we usually get sad.

I don't think any difference at all from others is something that can sadden an individual. There's no concrete definition for what "normal" is, so many of the ways in which one is different from others don't make it harder to fit in.

When talking about disabilities, it is likely that most of them make it harder to fit in. But I believe some people are so well adjusted to their differences, that this doesn't sadden them. They are able to do almost everything anyone else can, they just get there in a different way.

Well, this might not be the case for severely disabled people, who really aren't able to do most everyday things. But I don't think using or not using the word 'stupid' is going to change much for them. It's a fact they are different from most of the population, and until we can replace flesh bodies with cyborgs that isn't going away.

Quote

Some people (a group probably much smaller than those who would be offended if those words continued being spoken) would only feel offended if they knew someone was purposefully avoiding that. I don't believe anyone would notice that, tbh.

I could see this being true on the internet, I suppose. In real life, I'm too autistic to not give away that I'm trying to refrain from using those words.

Quote

I'm not saying you're ableist for using those words. But even if your intentions are good, you would still be using a part of someone's identity and life in a negative connotation, which would only further emphasize their disadvantageous position in society. It's hard to give an example to someone who isn't in such a position, but look at the "name" example I gave to mitchhamilton above.

I don't think I'd be using someone's identity in a negative connotation, though. If I call a person crazy, I'm not using mentally disabled people's lives in a negative connotation because I don't associate the two concepts together.

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Barktooth

11 minutes ago, Barktooth said:

When talking about disabilities, it is likely that most of them make it harder to fit in. But I believe some people are so well adjusted to their differences, that this doesn't sadden them. They are able to do almost everything anyone else can, they just get there in a different way.

You have a point; there are probably some people like that. However, when I say disadvantageous social position, I don't only mean that they can't do things most people can. Even though those people might sometimes not feel different at all, society is still harsh with them, especially because of some verbal offenses. I'm not referring specifically to the words I listed here, as most disabled people often have to hear lots of crap from able-bodied individuals. If they don't care about that, it's probably because they have gotten used to it, which is not a good thing. It's just like some black people have gotten used to racist microaggressions. 

17 minutes ago, Barktooth said:

Well, this might not be the case for severely disabled people, who really aren't able to do most everyday things. But I don't think using or not using the word 'stupid' is going to change much for them. It's a fact they are different from most of the population, and until we can replace flesh bodies with cyborgs that isn't going away.

It may not change their physical or mental condition, but it will certainly make them feel a lot better about themselves.

19 minutes ago, Barktooth said:

I could see this being true on the internet, I suppose. In real life, I'm too autistic to not give away that I'm trying to refrain from using those words.

Well, that's a problem with your personality in particular. But you have three choices:

1. Keep using those words and unintentionally offending some people, who will probably suffer quietly

2. Police yourself as to stop using those words and gloat about doing that, which might offend some people either because of the gloating or because they want to be treated like everyone else, like you said

3. Stop using those words and make the effort of keeping your mouth shut about it, which won't offend anyone

Guess what's the most selfless one?

24 minutes ago, Barktooth said:

I don't think I'd be using someone's identity in a negative connotation, though. If I call a person crazy, I'm not using mentally disabled people's lives in a negative connotation because I don't associate the two concepts together.

But people do not know whether you associate those concepts or not. The negative connotation related to mentally disabled people is already rooted on that word. It became a more and more common word, everyone started using it daily with various different connotations, but isn't that kinda sad? The fact that a word used to describe some people's condition became so common that everyone today is using it frivolously and meaninglessly, without even noticing that it carries an offensive connotation? Because, before, when it was a new word, everyone would be always aware that it referred to a disabled person, and they would at least know they were using it in an ableist way when insulting someone with it. But right now, nobody even notices that, so even people that mean no harm say it.