guide The so call VN engine [the truth behind them all] [10/28/2015]

[fun2novel]

 

Unity plugin: Fungus - Now i dont know much about this engine (reading things off google), it does seem like it another no code engine. what really makes this one different from all other engines that i list is its ability to run animated sprites, unity build (standard build, no consoles included), and the script is whatever unity has right now. Since this is Unity you will face these problems, Poor graphics quality as compared to Unreal Engine, Unfriendly User-Interface (even if you download the plug-in you will still have a bad time on it), and lastly dependent of unity, if their web browser stops working you have to wait for them to fix it, if unity discover a hack bug you have to update, if they going to upgrade you have to upgrade.

That's a complete bullshit. You can't talk about something you haven't even tried. Unity has a much better user interface than Unreal's cluttered mess. It's visual fidelity is of the highest standard. The engine is really easy to use and very quickly you can make pretty much any game you want. The Fungus plug-in is amazing too. It's very simple and easy to use. You can also extend it as needed. So I don't know where you get your facts but you should check them before you post. And what the hell is this 'if they going to upgrade you have to upgrade'? If Epic upgrade Unreal4 you don't have to upgrade it? With Fungus you can make visual novels in seconds, literally. Can you really do that in Unreal4?

Fun fact: All those Mangagamer vns you guys enjoy so much, the localization is completely remade on Unity. They chose Unity for it's ease of use, how simple it is, and how fast it is.

Edited November 4, 2015 by fun2novel

[CryingWestern]

 

Fun fact: All those Mangagamer vns you guys enjoy so much, the localization is completely remade on Unity. They chose Unity for it's ease of use, how simple it is, and how fast it is.

Yes and No.

The ones where they get permission from the Devs to do the coding themselves, will either go on Unity, renpy or kirikiri2  (depending on who's the programmer for that (eg. Doddler likes to use Unity.)).

However, there are devs that want to do the coding themselves(eg. ClockUP, Propeller and Frontwing), and won't let them touch the coding.

 

[Narcosis]

I like when devs do actual work on localization. It shows they actually care about their games.

[fun2novel]

 

Fun fact: All those Mangagamer vns you guys enjoy so much, the localization is completely remade on Unity. They chose Unity for it's ease of use, how simple it is, and how fast it is.

Yes and No.

The ones where they get permission from the Devs to do the coding themselves, will either go on Unity, renpy or kirikiri2  (depending on who's the programmer for that (eg. Doddler likes to use Unity.)).

However, there are devs that want to do the coding themselves(eg. ClockUP, Propeller and Frontwing), and won't let them touch the coding.

 

Yeah of course you're right. But I was talking about when Mangagamer do the coding. They don't use anything else but Unity today. There's just no reason to use anything else.

[Narcosis]

There's just no reason to use anything else.  

 That's bullshit. Unity has it's pros and cons, like any other enviroment. The point is, when you get past the issues (they are actually a huge wall for most vn developers), it provides a solid ground for stable releases with multiplatform support you won't find elsewhere. Considering a lot of japanese game devs have been lately moving onto Unity as well, I'm guessing we'll also see a lot more vn's being released on a single, unified engine, which is always nice; especially in terms of fast and efficient game localization.

[wyldstrykr]

what about the engine used in majikoi,harukoi otome,clannad,h20, yumina the etherial and eien no aselia? 

im just an idiot wondering... and i think the last 2 has the same engine

[CryingWestern]

You could put them down, but you wouldn't be able to get them since they are the companies homemade engines.

[CryingWestern]

Well... BaseSon (Harukoi Otomes devs) changed their engine to the CS2 engine.

[wyldstrykr]

i see, they created their own engine, thanks for the info

[fun2novel]

There's just no reason to use anything else.  

 That's bullshit. Unity has it's pros and cons, like any other enviroment. The point is, when you get past the issues (they are actually a huge wall for most vn developers), it provides a solid ground for stable releases with multiplatform support you won't find elsewhere. Considering a lot of japanese game devs have been lately moving onto Unity as well, I'm guessing we'll also see a lot more vn's being released on a single, unified engine, which is always nice; especially in terms of fast and efficient game localization.

Why would it be a huge wall for most vn developers? vn programmers are no different from any other programmers. I don't see why it should be such a big problem. Have you ever developed on unity? or any other engine?

I'm not defending Unity but if you never developed on Unity or don't have more than at least 10 months to a year of experience developing games and haven't even developed on different engines I don't see how you can make this kind of statement.

[Narcosis]

Unity ports require writing an entire engine along with all their functionalities from scratch. It's something you typically avoid during localization, unless completely necessary. Unity is clunky and overcomplicated, even in it's current state. It's slow.  It's still a great tool when you get used to it, but before that it just scares off most people, especially beginners; It's a game development framework, after all. Ask an average vn developer, why would he ever consider using something like that, while all he needs is a piece of code which displays static images on a couple of layers along with a text box, simple sound interface and a parser for the game script?

This is why the vast majority of vn developers still do not even consider moving onto Unity; why even pay for a license, when KK3/KAG gives you all the tools for free and exactly what you need, without anything else you won't? Most high budget production studios usually use their own proprietary engines anyway.

This is also why engines like Ren'Py still prove more attractive than Unity. They offer modern standards, partial multiplatform support and huge functionality for exactly nothing. They are also very easy to use and work out of the box, giving you a complete framework template ready to build and expand upon. Unity doesn't. Surely, it won't scare professional programmers, but I hope you don't expect the majority of developers making vn's to be them. Most definately not the ones, who make the current core of western industry.

[Deep Blue]

exogenisis was having big issues with unity, they ported the portion of the game they were working with from renpy but still so probably that was a big part of the problem (they also changed the programmer) 

a nice reading for anyone who is bored  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2921787/exogenesis-post-apocalyptic-tokyo-adventure-visual/posts/1034908 

http://ask.fm/The_Doddler/answer/117673771249

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Deep Blue

[firecat]

KnS2 use unity, I remember playing the demo from the browser which was really cool and you can do that with unity

here it is
http://mangagamer.org/kns2/demo/index.html 

i can find anything that says its made in unity and i whent to itch.io to make sure it might be connected by the same UI but found nothing but errors (chrome):  http://q_dork.itch.io/the-banana-killer  [Last updated Mon, 02 Nov 2015 23:00:39 GMT]  also i looked into the elements with chrome and found that it was buid in HTML, which would make sence since on the webpage it has HTML on the last world.

Here's one of Doddler's screenshots of Kara no Shoujo 2 in unity.

I'll be right back with the other shit, i've now got to purchase the games.

cant see any thing and doesnt show the vn, it could be anything.

Now I know your an idiot, look at the top left hand corner and read what it fucken says, "kara-no-shojo-2".

 

not everyone reads small text, there is a limit in pixels in a phtoto. you cant just enhance it like those CSI shows, its impossible.

There's just no reason to use anything else.  

 That's bullshit. Unity has it's pros and cons, like any other enviroment. The point is, when you get past the issues (they are actually a huge wall for most vn developers), it provides a solid ground for stable releases with multiplatform support you won't find elsewhere. Considering a lot of japanese game devs have been lately moving onto Unity as well, I'm guessing we'll also see a lot more vn's being released on a single, unified engine, which is always nice; especially in terms of fast and efficient game localization.

Why would it be a huge wall for most vn developers? vn programmers are no different from any other programmers. I don't see why it should be such a big problem. Have you ever developed on unity? or any other engine?

I'm not defending Unity but if you never developed on Unity or don't have more than at least 10 months to a year of experience developing games and haven't even developed on different engines I don't see how you can make this kind of statement.

the wall is unity UI, just like blender UI, you have to read a very long manual to find that one thing you looking for in unity/blender. it doesnt follow the universal UI that many other engines have build so we are left guessing where things have been place or where it could be place. 

i have try to develop in unity, almost everyone has tried and as i said there were so many tabs, importing works but moving 3d models was difficult because you have to move camera (maya doesnt have that problem), getting a 2d game to work is even more difficult because again the camera but that wasnt all you needed another camera but code them to do what you want. last thing i try before quitting unity forever is just adding water or land, it turns out that if i cant make it fit the whole map will lag the game or it becomes so small and unplayable.

why yes i do have other engines i have been working on: http://firecat.itch.io/the-unknowns-saga-palleal-universe

yes the cost of losing HTML, linux, and counsel is sad but its better than getting no results. NeoAxis shows what most UI looks like in other engines, including Unreal, Cryengine and Torque 3D.

[CryingWestern]

Here's the proof for Kara no shojo release, Japanese version is on IG's own engine and the english version on the kirikiri2 engine.

 

[Deep Blue]

KnS2 use unity, I remember playing the demo from the browser which was really cool and you can do that with unity

here it is
http://mangagamer.org/kns2/demo/index.html 

i can find anything that says its made in unity and i whent to itch.io to make sure it might be connected by the same UI but found nothing but errors (chrome):  http://q_dork.itch.io/the-banana-killer  [Last updated Mon, 02 Nov 2015 23:00:39 GMT]  also i looked into the elements with chrome and found that it was buid in HTML, which would make sence since on the webpage it has HTML on the last world.

Here's one of Doddler's screenshots of Kara no Shoujo 2 in unity.

I'll be right back with the other shit, i've now got to purchase the games.

cant see any thing and doesnt show the vn, it could be anything.

Now I know your an idiot, look at the top left hand corner and read what it fucken says, "kara-no-shojo-2".

 

not everyone reads small text, there is a limit in pixels in a phtoto. you cant just enhance it like those CSI shows, its impossible.

There's just no reason to use anything else.  

 That's bullshit. Unity has it's pros and cons, like any other enviroment. The point is, when you get past the issues (they are actually a huge wall for most vn developers), it provides a solid ground for stable releases with multiplatform support you won't find elsewhere. Considering a lot of japanese game devs have been lately moving onto Unity as well, I'm guessing we'll also see a lot more vn's being released on a single, unified engine, which is always nice; especially in terms of fast and efficient game localization.

Why would it be a huge wall for most vn developers? vn programmers are no different from any other programmers. I don't see why it should be such a big problem. Have you ever developed on unity? or any other engine?

I'm not defending Unity but if you never developed on Unity or don't have more than at least 10 months to a year of experience developing games and haven't even developed on different engines I don't see how you can make this kind of statement.

the wall is unity UI, just like blender UI, you have to read a very long manual to find that one thing you looking for in unity/blender. it doesnt follow the universal UI that many other engines have build so we are left guessing where things have been place or where it could be place. 

i have try to develop in unity, almost everyone has tried and as i said there were so many tabs, importing works but moving 3d models was difficult because you have to move camera (maya doesnt have that problem), getting a 2d game to work is even more difficult because again the camera but that wasnt all you needed another camera but code them to do what you want. last thing i try before quitting unity forever is just adding water or land, it turns out that if i cant make it fit the whole map will lag the game or it becomes so small and unplayable.

why yes i do have other engines i have been working on: http://firecat.itch.io/the-unknowns-saga-palleal-universe

yes the cost of losing HTML, linux, and counsel is sad but its better than getting no results. NeoAxis shows what most UI looks like in other engines, including Unreal, Cryengine and Torque 3D.

if you look at the source code of the page it says is using Unity with WebGL, maybe im reading something wrong 

 

Here's the proof for Kara no shojo release, Japanese version is on IG's own engine and the english version on the kirikiri2 engine.

 

so yeah it runs on kirikiri 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Deep Blue

[CryingWestern]

if you look at the source code of the page it says is using Unity with WebGL, maybe im reading something wrong 

Don't know, though if you have a look at the scripts for the page it does state it was using Unity.

[firecat]

if you look at the source code of the page it says is using Unity with WebGL, maybe im reading something wrong 

Don't know, though if you have a look at the scripts for the page it does state it was using Unity.

i dont know, cant find it with these small text (who ever thought it was a good idea to make it 100x1000).

yes i can see that its on kirikiri but that doesnt mean its better or greater than Novelty because its the same thing. they both have C++ language, they both are windows only, and both are only in one language. the reason Novelty is place there is because it offers more stuff like Object oriented design, NoveltyML, Animation, and collaboration. kirikiri cant do that and its abandoned, who knows if Novelty may one day be translated into JP lagrange or be a rival for renpy.

[Salurian]

Hmm... well, as I said on my first post on this topic, best bet is to see what is available, and experiment to find which engine is best for your project's use.  I'd say just leave it at that.  Once again, instead of saying which is better than the other, just simply say what is actually different about the various engines.  It is actually helpful to have a listing of all the available engines with notes saying pros/cons of each.

[Narcosis]

Hmm... well, as I said on my first post on this topic, best bet is to see what is available, and experiment to find which engine is best for your project's use.  I'd say just leave it at that.  Once again, instead of saying which is better than the other, just simply say what is actually different about the various engines.  It is actually helpful to have a listing of all the available engines with notes saying pros/cons of each.

You expect non-biased, meaningful and constructive posting on Fuwanovel? Blasphemy!

[fun2novel]

Unity ports require writing an entire engine along with all their functionalities from scratch. It's something you typically avoid during localization, unless completely necessary. Unity is clunky and overcomplicated, even in it's current state. It's slow.  It's still a great tool when you get used to it, but before that it just scares off most people, especially beginners; It's a game development framework, after all. Ask an average vn developer, why would he ever consider using something like that, while all he needs is a piece of code which displays static images on a couple of layers along with a text box, simple sound interface and a parser for the game script?

This is why the vast majority of vn developers still do not even consider moving onto Unity; why even pay for a license, when KK3/KAG gives you all the tools for free and exactly what you need, without anything else you won't? Most high budget production studios usually use their own proprietary engines anyway.

This is also why engines like Ren'Py still prove more attractive than Unity. They offer modern standards, partial multiplatform support and huge functionality for exactly nothing. They are also very easy to use and work out of the box, giving you a complete framework template ready to build and expand upon. Unity doesn't. Surely, it won't scare professional programmers, but I hope you don't expect the majority of developers making vn's to be them. Most definately not the ones, who make the current core of western industry.

What the hell are you talking about? Why is Unity clunky and over complicated? Dude, 6 year old children use Unity. If you tried Unity and immediately gave up that's just your problem. Not the engine's, every tool needs a little to learn. And what makes you say that it's slow? In literally minutes you can make a game in it.  Why would you say "Ask an average vn developer, why would he ever consider using something like that, while all he needs is a piece of code which displays static images on a couple of layers along with a text box, simple sound interface and a parser for the game script?" when you don't need to write ANY code with Unity and Fungus, both are completely free and feature rich. So don't go saying things you know NOTHING about.

So let's see, Ren'Py needs code, doesn't have a visual editor (like for example Novelty), has some template to get you started but that's it, ok I get that. Now let's look at Unity, the free version has all the features of the pro version, you have the power to make visual novels VISUALLY, you due to it being a general engine you can go nuts with anything you want to do, you can create some really creative visual novels, Fungus the Unity plug in is free and let's you make visual novels with no code at all, you can easily define choices, create your own text box, edit your vn visually and position everything just right, do infinite things with Unity UI like all kinds of effects and cross fades, Unity lets has an amazing animation system that gives you the control to animate anything you want, and so much more.

I am a Unity developer and I have worked with many engines over the years including Unreal2, Unreal3, Unreal4, CryEngine1, CryEngine2, Gamemaker, Construct, Multimedia Fusion, Quake3, Gamebryo, Ogre3D, Novelty, Ren'Py, and these are just a few from the top of my head. You seriously want to say that YOU have better credit than I do? I'm done with this shit. Check your facts and maybe we can have an intelligent discussion because the more I read your commends the more brain dead I become.

[Narcosis]

You seriously want to say that YOU have better credit than I do?

Did I, or is it you assuming way too much, just because you somehow feel more entitled to state opinions? I don't know.

For your note, it's you who stated, let me quote it one more time:

 There's just no reason to use anything else.

There's not a single sentence of me bashing Unity. I stated it's most major pros and cons from an average joe's perspective. As a professional, you propably don't see Unity the same way others do anymore. Ask indies, people who began to learn Unity to actually make games instead playing with it for fun. I'm not the only person with a similiar opinion.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what you use, but how clever and creative you are to use the tools you actually have to achieve the results you want.

[Xelestial]

So for what purpose would any small studio use anything other than Ren'py, with the exception of those who build their own engines?

Honestly this thread is full of opinions more than facts though... ._.

[CryingWestern]

So for what purpose would any small studio use anything other than Ren'py, with the exception of those who build their own engines?

Honestly this thread is full of opinions more than facts though... ._.

This thread was never going to go anywhere from the beginning.

[firecat]

So for what purpose would any small studio use anything other than Ren'py, with the exception of those who build their own engines?

Honestly this thread is full of opinions more than facts though... ._.

many small studios use engines as their first game, by hiring someone to build an engine it could take over 2 years and $9,000 to get that code. thats also not the worst part, since its a new engine, the one who build it might never explain how it works to other developers. this kind of stuff happens even to AAA games, examples include mabinogi, onverse, blender game engine, Quake engine, and so on.

nope its real facts, i tested many of them (not kirikiri since its unreadable and its exactly the same like Novelty). so here how its done to prove that i have tested them:

renpy: i made my games on it and tested on android, http://firecat.itch.io/serious-to-the-end

tyranobuilder: it had a trial test (the removed it when it launched on steam) and the games can be tested here: https://itch.io/jam/tyranojam15

Novelty: tested and played this game, it wasnt defferent from renpy its just that it has yet to build other OS: http://visual-novelty.deviantart.com/art/Secret-Journal-Guardian-538656289

Belle: i'm still working on my game for it, in the meantime compare the two engines (Tyranobuilder http://baka-kun.itch.io/butterfly-effect-vn vs Belle http://fr33mind.github.io/Belle/demo.html )

Unity plugin: Fungus - i really did try to follow this official video guide and yes i try to find a game but couldent find any, https://youtu.be/u5fhU7xAz2o?list=PLiMlyObJfJmUohJ_M2pJhtrNKuNECo2Uk

Cloudnovel: tested and played this game - http://cloudnovel.net/play?n=bc5599a0c9b

as you can see, i did everything that should be done to make the facts as simple as possible.

[Xelestial]

So for what purpose would any small studio use anything other than Ren'py, with the exception of those who build their own engines?

Honestly this thread is full of opinions more than facts though... ._.

many small studios use engines as their first game, by hiring someone to build an engine it could take over 2 years and $9,000 to get that code. thats also not the worst part, since its a new engine, the one who build it might never explain how it works to other developers. this kind of stuff happens even to AAA games, examples include mabinogi, onverse, blender game engine, Quake engine, and so on.

nope its real facts, i tested many of them (not kirikiri since its unreadable and its exactly the same like Novelty). so here how its done to prove that i have tested them:

renpy: i made my games on it and tested on android, http://firecat.itch.io/serious-to-the-end

tyranobuilder: it had a trial test (the removed it when it launched on steam) and the games can be tested here: https://itch.io/jam/tyranojam15

Novelty: tested and played this game, it wasnt defferent from renpy its just that it has yet to build other OS: http://visual-novelty.deviantart.com/art/Secret-Journal-Guardian-538656289

Belle: i'm still working on my game for it, in the meantime compare the two engines (Tyranobuilder http://baka-kun.itch.io/butterfly-effect-vn vs Belle http://fr33mind.github.io/Belle/demo.html )

Unity plugin: Fungus - i really did try to follow this official video guide and yes i try to find a game but couldent find any, https://youtu.be/u5fhU7xAz2o?list=PLiMlyObJfJmUohJ_M2pJhtrNKuNECo2Uk

Cloudnovel: tested and played this game - http://cloudnovel.net/play?n=bc5599a0c9b

as you can see, i did everything that should be done to make the facts as simple as possible.

I didn't mean to imply that your information was just opinions. Pretty much the rest of the comments in the thread other than yours was though, as far as I could tell.

My question was more wondering why wouldn't a small VN developer wouldn't just stick with Ren'py because of all the facts you presented made the rest look pretty bad honestly. I don't see any real drawbacks to it unless you're fluent in one of the other languages already.