Anime Boston and Sakura-Con Speculation and Announcements thread

[sanahtlig]

6 hours ago, Codesterz said:

Release Grisaia no Meikyuu AA and AO versions on the same day. Have there be no patch to add AO content to the AA version so people have to choose to buy 1 or the other. Advertise them equally and don't try to hide the existence of the AO version. Do this and we'll see which one turns out to be more profitable.

I agree with @Down.  What you're asking is impossible.  You can't force fans to not make a Steam restoration patch.  Different platforms have different levels of intrinsic marketing / accessibility.  What you want is a comprehensive scientific study comparing market potential and no one is going to do that.

If you want to revel in the erotic elements of eroge then LewdGamer is probably your site.  Part of their mission is mobilizing the sex-positive crowd who celebrate erotic elements for their own sake.  To be honest, that's a little extreme even for me, and I think of myself as a dedicated eroge fan. 

[sanahtlig]

16 minutes ago, Rooke said:

You want to show Dovac he's wrong, buy the damn games people. Considering pre-Steam MG's bestselling games moved 2,000 copies, and post Steam everybody's moving a lot more, I doubt the number will be impressive. 

Part of the problem is that given the choice between a $25 Steam version with a free adult content patch and a $35 adult version, most people will go for the former--especially since you buy the Steam version first and "upgrade" later, whereas you're pretty much stuck with the $35 version and can't get your $10 back if the content disappoints.  Not to mention Steam is viewed as a more reliable DL service than any of the alternatives for adult games.

Imagine an alternative scenario where it was the adult platform that had millions of users, adult versions were sold cheaper than the whitewashed censored versions specially made for the English market, and consider if the comparison you're making would be "fair". 

[Crayten]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/karakara-a-new-visual-novel-by-industry-veterans#/

Most of the Backer choose the AO tier for 10$ over the 5$ AA. I would also have no problem to pay 10$ more if i would get a AO patch w/e for SP available games.

[Darklord Rooke]

8 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Part of the problem is that given the choice between a $25 Steam version with a free adult content patch and a $35 adult version, most people will go for the former--especially since you buy the Steam version first and "upgrade" later, whereas you're pretty much stuck with the $35 version and can't get your $10 back if the content disappoints.  Not to mention Steam is viewed as a more reliable DL service than any of the alternatives for adult games.

Imagine an alternative scenario where it was the adult platform that had millions of users, adult versions were sold cheaper than the whitewashed censored versions specially made for the English market, and consider if the comparison you're making would be "fair". 

Well, it's not about 'fairness', it's about making responsible business decisions. In your scenario, I would make the exact same comparison ... er, in reverse.

The AO versions had many, many years to prove their viability before companies headed to Steam (through desperation because nobody bought anything.) While a perfect comparison doesn't exist today, it's more than fair to say eroge was struggling beforehand - unlike VNs on Steam, the adult only content sold beforehand never really proved their viability as a market. MG was always struggling, JAST went bankrupt once before. Now all age stuff is being released on Steam and people are saying 'give AO a chance, strip away the advantages of Steam and we'll show you that AO content is equally viable' - well, people had many years to show this and diddly-squat happened, and the advantages of Steam are half the point (adult only games struggle for mindshare in the Western community, e.g.) 

[sanahtlig]

4 minutes ago, Rooke said:

JAST went bankrupt once before

I've never heard of this.  Please elaborate.

The availability of these Steam restoration patches is important because, for all we know, the games might not sell as well on Steam if these patches weren't available.  Try telling Japanese developers that their sales are benefitting from piracy though.

[Codesterz]

23 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Down's already given an excellent response to the AO issue, so I'll concentrate on this.

A short story tends to be any piece of work under approximately 10,000 words. Because VNs have routes, you'd could make a case that this word count only includes the number of words for one route instead of all up, so 10,000 words through one route/playthrough. The idea that you'd use a time system which varies greatly is silly, and the idea that it's 10 hours is out of kilter with traditional standards. A novel is anything over 40,000 words (for one route, if you want to go down that path.)

Many Japanese VNs ARE long, that is true, but it should be noted that it's because they bloat their character/word count with useless scenes and meaningless fluff. That's called 'making your novel longer through poor writing.' Writers who write tightly plotted novels and scenes shouldn't be penalised and feel they need to reach a massive number of words because people want to pander to the poor writing practices of others.

Also the community now has the opportunity to show Dovac he's wrong. Isn't this a glorious day? So instead of /jp/ sitting on their glutei maximi all day talking out their arse like they always do, they now have the opportunity to prove shit by putting their money where their mouth is. You want to show Dovac he's wrong, buy the damn games people. Considering pre-Steam MG's bestselling games moved 2,000 copies, and post Steam everybody's moving a lot more, I doubt the number will be impressive. 

Funny you should mention 10,000 words is considered a short story as that tends to be around how long a 10 hour VN is -_-. Since you seem to hate the measuring of time I want you to start to do something for me. Whenever someone tell you its a 30 minutes drive to so and so location I want you to correct them and say you mean 30 miles. Sorry but your nitpicking bugs me had to bring it up. My reading speed doesn't really vary much so using time to measure length and determining if something is a short story or not feels pretty right to me. The whole poor writing thing you are WAY OFF with. I value characters over story. This holds true for me in games, VNs, movies, anime, manga, novels, etc. If I don't care for any of the characters why would I be interested in their story. I love character fluff, sure there is point where you can over do it. If a VN ends within 10 hours It's very unlikely I will become attached to any of the characters.

 

18 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

I agree with @Down.  What you're asking is impossible.  You can't force fans to not make a Steam restoration patch.  Different platforms have different levels of intrinsic marketing / accessibility.  What you want is a comprehensive scientific study comparing market potential and no one is going to do that.

If you want to revel in the erotic elements of eroge then LewdGamer is probably your site.  Part of their mission is mobilizing the sex-positive crowd who celebrate erotic elements for their own sake.  To be honest, that's a little extreme even for me, and I think of myself as a dedicated eroge fan. 

I'm not asking fans to not make a restoration patch. The whole AO patch thing is referring purely to Nekopara where the patches were official. Plain and simply... Sekai Project release VN with both AA and AO versions... release them on the same day... DO NOT SELL AN OFFICIAL PATCH THAT RESTORES AO CONTENT... People would in most cases buy 1 version or the other... and then after say a few weeks look to see which sold better.

[sanahtlig]

I'm pretty sure MangaGamer has already released games in this manner.  Ask them for their sales data.  I still argue the data wouldn't be very useful.  Sales are entirely dependent on the number of impressions.  If people don't know about your game they can't buy it.

Market potential and market reality are two entirely different concepts.  If you want to fight to bring more attention to eroge, support LewdGamer.  Donate money.  Write articles for them.  They're the only outlet I know of that consistently covers eroge and makes it part of their mission statement.  Supporting activist groups is the only way to enact durable change.  People tell you to buy games but that's a drop in the bucket that doesn't make much of a difference by itself.  Support people who actually fight on the frontlines and consider joining in yourself rather than just arguing in circles on forums.

 

[Darklord Rooke]

2 minutes ago, Codesterz said:

Funny you should mention 10,000 words is considered a short story as that tends to be around how long a 10 hour VN is -_-.

Depends on your reading speed. I read more than 10,000 words in 10 hours. Easily. I finish books in that time, over 10 times as big, but I've had a lot of practice reading. I know some who read faster, and some who read slower. This is why measuring VNs in 'hours' is useless. This is why you saying 'it's a 10 hour VN' when people's reading speeds vary wildly is useless - the people you're talking to can't get an accurate impression of size.

3 minutes ago, Codesterz said:

Whenever someone tell you its a 30 minutes drive to so and so location I want you to correct them and say you mean 30 miles.

That would depend on the time of day, and the speed limit. 30 minutes in peak hour traffic is often different from 30 minutes in normal traffic. What they may say is 'it will take 30 minutes to drive there' which means 'taking into consideration the time of day, the speed limit, and your driving habits, it will take 30 minutes to get there.' Context is implied. If they don't take that into consideration, they're giving you a bad estimate. Feel free to respond with a punch in the face.

And when you say it's a 10 hour VN, it may mean 10 hours for you, 50 hours for Billy Bob, and 2 hours for Clephas. Who knows, too many variables.

Time has never been an accurate or good way to measure how long a book is, and it never will either, despite what the VN community and VNDB like to practice.

7 minutes ago, Codesterz said:

The whole poor writing thing you are WAY OFF with. I value characters over story. This holds true for me in games, VNs, movies, anime, manga, novels, etc. If I don't care for any of the characters why would I be interested in their story. I love character fluff, sure there is point where you can over do it. If a VN ends within 10 hours It's very unlikely I will become attached to any of the characters.

I brought this up in another thread. Slice of life character stuff in a slice of life story is cool. That is why YKK is one of the best manga created even though it was made 20 years ago, top slice of life. Literature also has this. HOWEVER, slice of life or too much slice of life in a story with a plot detracts from the story. The scenes may be humourous, it may show character interaction, but the plot always suffers. You may enjoy such novels, but it is undoubtedly a poor writing technique in most hands, and it will turn many, many people. Which is why SB scored LB a 4/10.

Character development can occur within scenes which move the plot forward, and a few slice of life scenes are okay, but on the whole Japanese VNs overdo it. Most of Key VNs overdo it for starters. Deardrops probably. Kira Kira probably. Ever 17 definitely etc etc.

3 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

I've never heard of this.  Please elaborate.

The availability of these Steam restoration patches is important because, for all we know, the games might not sell as well on Steam if these patches weren't available.  Try telling Japanese developers that their sales are benefitting from piracy though.

I see my memory has failed me again ...  90's, something related to JAST went bankrupt, I'm sure of it ...

2 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

consider joining in yourself rather than just arguing in circles on forums.

 

A lot of work, Sanah  Very few people are willing to work for their hobby

[Caio000]

21 minutes ago, Codesterz said:

I'm not asking fans to not make a restoration patch. The whole AO patch thing is referring purely to Nekopara where the patches were official. Plain and simply... Sekai Project release VN with both AA and AO versions... release them on the same day... DO NOT SELL AN OFFICIAL PATCH THAT RESTORES AO CONTENT... People would in most cases buy 1 version or the other... and then after say a few weeks look to see which sold better.

This would be very bad for people like me that live in countries where the dollar is expensive, honestly the regional pricing of Steam is almost a bless for me. If I had to buy in dollar the price of Nekopara would be enough to buy Grisaia on Steam, if I had to buy in dollar the price of Grisaia would be enough to buy two copies of Clannad on Steam. With patches the price is significantly low what is already something more affordable.

[Darklord Rooke]

2 minutes ago, Caio000 said:

This would be very bad for people like me that live in countries where the dollar is expensive, honestly the regional pricing of Steam is almost a bless for me. If I had to buy in dollar the price of Nekopara would be enough to buy Grisaia on Steam, if I had to buy in dollar the price of Grisaia would be enough to buy two copies of Clannad on Steam. With patches the price is significantly low what is already something more affordable.

I'm about to showcase my poor memory again. I remember someone commenting on this forum, from Brazil I think, on the price of MG VNs from Steam. Because of regional pricing I think they were getting it at less than half the price of US customers, which is nice. So yeah, definitely an advantage of Steam  

I'd just like to say that because Australia has no regional pricing, and our dollar is currently 70US cents, well ...  

[sanahtlig]

10 minutes ago, Rooke said:

I see my memory has failed me again ...  90's, something related to JAST went bankrupt, I'm sure of it ...

That was JAST USA's Japanese parent company, which went bankrupt a few years after JAST USA was established.  I'm sure that had little or nothing to do with JAST USA's operations, especially since it's not at all uncommon for Japanese companies to look at English markets as a desperate remedial measure in times of financial trouble.

[Down]

23 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Funny you should mention 10,000 words is considered a short story as that tends to be around how long a 10 hour VN is -_-.

That doesn't add up, you got an order of magnitude wrong here.

Most people read between 150 and 400 words per minute. 10 000 words should take you between 25 minutes and an hour. Even an unskilled reader wouldn't be much slower.

To give a figure easy to picture, an average book in english would have around 400 words per pages (around 40 lines with an average of 10 words per lines). That of course varies a lot depending on font, language, format, etc but let's settle with 400, 10 000 words make a 25 page "book". The 40 000 words limit Rooke mentioned would make 100 pages, which sounds reasonable.

 

A 10 hour long VN is more likely to be, for the "average" reader (which is only a statistical entity, the dispersion is large), the equivalent of a 150 000 words / 375 pages novel. Visual novels are REALLY long. Of course the comparison is not very good, because I'm using a lot of averages and assumptions, the method of delivering the text is different, etc...

[Decay]

Yeah, 10 hour VNs will have 150,000 to 200,000 words, easy. Tyrael's Kindred Spirits review published here just a couple days ago has over 2,000 words, I doubt Codesterz is taking 2 hours to read it. Something tells me his estimate is just a wee bit off.

@Codesterz, you're entitled to your opinions, but I'll just say that your standards are pretty off. You make demands of SP then place completely arbitrary restrictions on those demands that only make sense for you and you alone. It's no wonder that they aren't able to reliably meet them. You can have your preferences of not liking shorter VNs, but don't be surprised when you continue to see large amounts of that stuff, and don't discount SP's efforts when they start making strides towards simultaneous AA/18+ releases just because you don't like some of the games. 

[Scorp]

@Decay, this is unrelated, but is that official, that G Senjou AO version from Sekai Denpa would never happen?

[Decay]

I have no idea. It sounds like it probably won't ever happen but that would just be a total guess at this point.

[Scorp]

Seems my only wish to see CGs without mosaic for gsenjou was futile from the beginning

[Kawasumi]

Tbh I dont care anymore what the companies are thinking about doing lol, they're doing what is best for their businesses and I cant really see why I should argue with that since I have 0 business sense

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, guess ill just keep whining about import laws and VAT instead.

[sanahtlig]

 

[Down]

I just tried with a japanese VPN and got the same error, it's not foreigner-specific.

[Kawasumi]

7 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

 

I cant even see their main site, I think I could at some point actually.

[Down]

3 minutes ago, Kawasumi said:

I cant even see their main site, I think I could at some point actually.

lose.jp doesn't work but lose.jp/official and most pages you can access from there do.

[Nosebleed]

Can confirm http://www.lose.jp/official/ works just fine (not using any VPN or proxies). I can even access the character pages full of NSFW pics.

It's really only the http://www.lose.jp/maitetsu/ and its derivates that don't work.

[sanahtlig]

17 minutes ago, Down said:

I just tried with a japanese VPN and got the same error, it's not foreigner-specific.

I was able to access through a JP proxy.

[Chuee]

You can access some of their Maitetsu stuff, like http://www.lose.jp/official/ev , which contains a picture of Hachiroku in a microbikini. 

As well as this http://www.lose.jp/official/maitetuyoyaku (NSFW) which has a bunch of pictures of character crossovers between Maitetsu and Monobeno, all naked. 

So, if this is some attempt to keep westerners from seeing how sexual Maitetsu is then they did a shitty job. 

[Crayten]

Thats not funny anymore and seriously fuck these guys.