t japan vs SakuraGame

[Huang Ling Yin]

More recently, t japan, the Japanese developer of 3D animated erotic visual novel, New Glass, had a run-in with the infamous SakuraGame.
SakuraGame reached out to the developer offering to publish his game on Steam.  In the translation of the tweets below, t japan lists the timeline of events as he describes his encounter with the publisher and notes that the Steam page for New Glass has been put online even before he officially signed any kind of contract with them. Of particular note in the description is the lack of professionalism when forging new contracts with new developers.





SakuraGame complied to t japan’s request, but before the actual page was removed it was modified to “Blank,” with most details about the game removed. The page was modified just after t japan voiced his complaints to them about the store page being up without him having signed contract. It is safe to assume SakuraGame decided to modify the page instead of outright removing it to either escape criticism of having acted without the developer’s consent or to have the page as a backup in case t japan decided to go through with the deal with them. Whichever the case may be, the whole exchange related by t japan shows that SakuraGame either does not care for proper business relations with their developer partners or they are running on extremely low amounts of competence. After the New Glass page was finally removed, the Japanese developer deleted all of the tweets regarding the case, in order to avoid causing an unnecessary uproar.


Sauce (NSFW)

Edited November 8, 2017 by Huang Ling Yin

[novurdim]

  On 11/7/2017 at 5:42 AM, Huang Ling Yin said:

Japanese developer deleted all of the tweets regarding the case, in order to avoid causing an unnecessary uproar.

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Pity, that uproar is extremely necessary. 

[ShinRaikdou]

I guess price tag was too low for him? 

That guy an asshole, btw. https://vndb.org/t8891

 

[Nandemonai]

I'd be pretty pissed off too if I made $16K in a year and people were stealing what I poured my heart and soul into on the internet.  The guy seemed really upset when he wrote that, and even so it was remarkably polite (for a "go to hell" letter anyway).  And he actually took the time to explain why he was angry instead of just making demands.  That doesn't seem so bad to me.

It's a simple fact that a fan patch causes piracy of the title in question to shoot way up compared to what it was before.  And yes, I see you over there, getting all indignant.  Well, it does.  There are a lot more fans that speak English than can read Japanese, so a fan patch dramatically ups the number of interested pirates.

The fact that fan patches aren't released by their creators as prepackaged torrents doesn't really matter when other people distribute them that way.  If he writes off the entire English community as a bunch of filthy pirates, well, be honest.  How far off is he?  Really?

[ShinRaikdou]

  On 11/7/2017 at 9:38 AM, Nandemonai said:

I'd be pretty pissed off too if I made $16K in a year and people were stealing what I poured my heart and soul into on the internet.  The guy seemed really upset when he wrote that, and even so it was remarkably polite (for a "go to hell" letter anyway).  And he actually took the time to explain why he was angry instead of just making demands.  That doesn't seem so bad to me.

It's a simple fact that a fan patch causes piracy of the title in question to shoot way up compared to what it was before.  And yes, I see you over there, getting all indignant.  Well, it does.  There are a lot more fans that speak English than can read Japanese, so a fan patch dramatically ups the number of interested pirates.

The fact that fan patches aren't released by their creators as prepackaged torrents doesn't really matter when other people distribute them that way.  If he writes off the entire English community as a bunch of filthy pirates, well, be honest.  How far off is he?  Really?

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But language doesn't matter. If you want to download, you will download any version regardless of language.

Theres is no point to buy japanese version if don't understand that language. English fan TL brings only new potential customers that may(or not) buy this game. Also if we assume the English community as a bunch of filthy pirates, then prepackaged edition is even better, because it is useless for those, who want to play in original, and people who download it - will never buy original version. Then what the point?

You should be proud if someone want to translate your work for free(bad TL is another story...) and share it with more people. I just can't see how this can bring any harm for sales...

[Fiddle]

https://vndb.org/t8891

  Quote

If you bought Glass, I appreciate your support.
If you are not buying Glass, I say fuck you.

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[TheUnknownMercenary]

  On 11/7/2017 at 10:32 AM, ShinRaikdou said:

But language doesn't matter. If you want to download, you will download any version regardless of language.

Theres is no point to buy japanese version if don't understand that language. English fan TL brings only new potential customers that may(or not) buy this game. Also if we assume the English community as a bunch of filthy pirates, then prepackaged edition is even better, because it is useless for those, who want to play in original, and people who download it - will never buy original version. Then what the point?

You should be proud if someone want to translate your work for free(bad TL is another story...) and share it with more people. I just can't see how this can bring any harm for sales...

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Pretty much this. I will never buy anything I can't enjoy and honestly I can't enjoy something I don't understand.

The only JP thing I bought that wasn't in english was Fate/Unlimited Codes and that was because I wanted to play the fighting game before the english came out and couldn't wait.

It's sad but this is the case for me. I have cash to spare and want to give them money, but I ain't giving money for a game I can't play and this really goes for anything. I'm not going to spent money on a AAA game that was gutted nor a game that is not in the language I prefer to play it in. I've bought tons of VN's back in the day (still currently) for the pure reason that they had fan TLs and I could play them eventually.

 

I should also state that his decision to not go along with sakuragames is, in fact, a good one. Putting out the above it at least seemed like he was all for an english version coming out and that's something I can get behind but SakuraGames and the way they do business is extremely unprofessional. He should absolutely be protecting his property and take it seriously. Good for him on this matter.

Edited November 7, 2017 by TheUnknownMercenary

[Beichuuka]

I don't see how he's being an asshole.
I mean, sure, it may not make perfect sense from a monetary perspective, but whether what income he will derive from the fan translation existing will be worth his discomfort of knowing the large number of foreigners who will pirate his work (and you know a good number will) is for him to decide.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Beichuuka

[Plk_Lesiak]

Devs have all the right in the world to hate fantranslations or try to block them, no matter how unfair it looks from our point of view or how wrong he is about it affecting his bottom line.

It's better to focus on the one thing he's definitely not wrong about and that's SakuraGame being cancer, when it goes to their business practices and the quality of their publishing. It's not that VNs have any prestige to lose in the West, but what they do definitely doesn't help. :s

[Silvz]

I think the problem in what tjapan said is simply because of language. He probably doesn't know English well enough/used a machine translator, which is fine considering nobody has to know a foreign language. I'm glad the translator considered the creator's voice, though.

And I think you should put NSFW with the source, since Lewd Game has a lot of uncensored images.

[Narcosis]

People are not entitled to anything.

If you want to play japanese games, learn japanese.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Narcosis

[TheCrimsonFucker]

Interesting to see how the point of this topick was SakuraGames shitty business practice, but it turned into the developer being an asshole. I don't really see his point but it's his work so he can decide what he wants to do with it. Even if it sounds rude. As for SakuraGame, well ... I'm not surprised.

[Narcosis]

  On 11/8/2017 at 10:34 PM, TheCrimsonFucker said:

Interesting to see how the point of this topick was SakuraGames shitty business practice, but it turned into the developer being an asshole. I don't really see his point but it's his work so he can decide what he wants to do with it. Even if it sounds rude. As for SakuraGame, well ... I'm not surprised.

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It's nothing new; people calling creators assholes, calling me an asshole for calling them out, etc. This community is a cancer.

Doesn't matter, since they'd pirate the game regardless of circumstances. There's very little of actual fans, who support the market and it's creators.

[Nandemonai]

  On 11/7/2017 at 10:32 AM, ShinRaikdou said:

But language doesn't matter. If you want to download, you will download any version regardless of language.

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Of course language matters.  My whole point was that more people want English games than want Japanese-only games.

[novurdim]

  On 11/9/2017 at 1:56 AM, Narcosis said:

It's nothing new; people calling creators assholes, calling me an asshole for calling them out, etc. This community is a cancer.

Doesn't matter, since they'd pirate the game regardless of circumstances. There's very little of actual fans, who support the market and it's creators.

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Well, to be fair, you do sound like an asshole right now despite saying the right things. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by novurdim

[Plk_Lesiak]

  On 11/9/2017 at 6:20 AM, novurdim said:

Well, to be fair, you do sound like an asshole right now despite saying the right things. 

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Sadly, I have to yet see a civil discussion on this topic. Not surprising though, when we have the obvious moral/legal principles on one side and people struggling with limited availability and unreasonable pricing of VNs on the other. The latter is the reason I mostly play VNs on Steam, with sales it's much easier to handle it financially, but you have to deal with censorship, cut out content and poor-quality releases. So in the foreseeable future people will still have huge incentives to bend the rules.

BTW, that's also the reason why I bought two VNs published by SakuraGame - felt dirty, but it's not like we can hope for a different western releases of those specific titles in the future. And with their pricing, SG actually reach huge audiences with some of their VNs - if they put a minimal effort in their localisations and toned down the scummy practices they could even have a positive role to play in popularizing VNs in the West. And that's what makes it even more frustrating.

[Beichuuka]

  On 11/9/2017 at 10:53 AM, Plk_Lesiak said:

Not surprising though, when we have the obvious moral/legal principles on one side and people struggling with limited availability and unreasonable pricing of VNs on the other. 

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Unreasonable pricing how?

Script the length of 6~8 novels (6~8 * 500~1000 yen = 3000~8000 yen)
Original Sound Track (2000~3000 yen)
Voice acting (Sound Drama which likely have much less content tend to be priced ~3000 yen)
Full-colored CGs (Illustration collections seem to be ~2000 yen)

Visual Novel (new work of decent size ~9800 yen)

Edited November 9, 2017 by Beichuuka

[Plk_Lesiak]

  On 11/9/2017 at 2:20 PM, Beichuuka said:

Unreasonable pricing how?

Script the length of 6~8 books (6~8 * 500~1000 yen = 3000~8000 yen)
Original Sound Track (2000~3000 yen)
Voice acting (???? yen)
Full-colored CGs (???? yen)

Visual Novel (generally 9800 yen for a new work of decent size)

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I won't argue with that, but I think it's more complicated. For an average Japanese person such price might be bearable, but for me, in a less well-off region of the world it often isn't (and I think many VN fans are in similar position). Also while older video games typically get much cheaper with time, visual novels often follow very stiff pricepoints - even when they're more than a decade old they can cost a lot. For an average gamer, there are many ways to economize his investments without doing anything questionable - as I see it now, with VNs its much harder. And the producers would probably gain a lot from making classic VNs more accessible, while still charging (justified) full prices for new products and things like HD re-releases and such. 

As more and more VNs get Steam releases, with slightly lower prices and regular sale discounts, it definitely gets better, but as I mentioned Steam has its own problems, especially when it goes adult-oriented titles. I didn't say it to justify piracy (apart from abandonware I never do), just to show that people have strong incentives to pirate VNs more than many other types of media.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Plk_Lesiak

[Dreamysyu]

  On 11/9/2017 at 10:53 AM, Plk_Lesiak said:

BTW, that's also the reason why I bought two VNs published by SakuraGame - felt dirty, but it's not like we can hope for a different western releases of those specific titles in the future.

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I can't say I agree with this. You know that if you purchase a game like that, you are basically sending both SG and the original creator a message that their approach works and they can continue selling future games in the same way. I personally would rather skip the game altogether than purchase it from them.

[Plk_Lesiak]

  On 11/9/2017 at 7:02 PM, Dreamysyu said:

I can't say I agree with this. You know that if you purchase a game like that, you are basically sending both SG and the original creator a message that their approach works and they can continue selling future games in the same way. I personally would rather skip the game altogether than purchase it from them.

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Yeah, I'm pure trash in this way that I absolutely agree with you and couldn't fight the temptation with Threecolour Lovestory and Fox Hime.

I find the situation with SG problematic in the way that in many cases playing community police is pretty much painless, in nearly every genre of games boycotting one publisher, even major ones, still leaves you a huge variety of easily accessible products. But when I want to find out what Chinese VNs look like or see some interesting new release added to the still modest Steam vn library, suddenly it's a bit harder.

You shouldn't be me though, be a moral person instead. ;] 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Plk_Lesiak

[Narcosis]

  On 11/9/2017 at 3:21 PM, Plk_Lesiak said:

For an average Japanese person such price might be bearable, but for me, in a less well-off region of the world it often isn't (and I think many VN fans are in similar position). Also while older video games typically get much cheaper with time, visual novels often follow very stiff pricepoints - even when they're more than a decade old they can cost a lot. For an average gamer, there are many ways to economize his investments without doing anything questionable - as I see it now, with VNs its much harder. And the producers would probably gain a lot from making classic VNs more accessible, while still charging (justified) full prices for new products and things like HD re-releases and such.

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As much as I understand this, I can't really agree with it. How is it possible, I'm somehow able to buy japanese vn's without issues and don't find them to be a major burden for my wallet, even though I'm literally from the same region and don't sleep on money? It's a matter of perspective.

Modern gamers are really spoiled nowadays. Steam users often compare vn's with AAA blockbuster games and then proceed to complain about their pricing, considering their low replayability, limited gameplay and focus on plain text reading. Within their minds, creators of vn's can't possibly approach them and charge the same price, because their games are literally less than 10% of what an average blockbuster game would be in terms of it's worth. It does not matter a lot of vn's are often far longer any modern AAA game is; as long as it involves only "reading and looking at cute pictures", those games don't deserve an equal price tag. Period.

It's the same people who don't read books and sadly, vn's are closer to books, than actual games in many cases. They are a part of interactive fiction, after all.

In the end, it's their choice - either buying whatever new EA or Ubisoft throws at them or another waifu simulator. Though choice, indeed.

I actually preferred when less people knew what vn's were and they didn't occupy the Steam store front.

[Plk_Lesiak]

  On 11/9/2017 at 9:47 PM, Narcosis said:

As much as I understand this, I can't really agree with it. How is it possible, I'm somehow able to buy japanese vn's without issues and don't find them to be a major burden for my wallet, even though I'm literally from the same region and don't sleep on money? It's a matter of perspective.

Modern gamers are really spoiled nowadays. Steam users often compare vn's with AAA blockbuster games and then proceed to complain about their pricing, considering their low replayability, limited gameplay and focus on plain text reading. Within their minds, creators of vn's can't possibly approach them and charge the same price, because their games are literally less than 10% of what an average blockbuster game would be in terms of it's worth. It does not matter a lot of vn's are often far longer any modern AAA game is; as long as it involves only "reading and looking at cute pictures", those games don't deserve an equal price tag. Period.

It's the same people who don't read books and sadly, vn's are closer to books, than actual games in many cases. They are a part of interactive fiction, after all.

In the end, it's their choice - either buying whatever new EA or Ubisoft throws at them or another waifu simulator. Though choice, indeed.

I actually preferred when less people knew what vn's were and they didn't occupy the Steam store front.

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Less people knowing what VNs are doesn't lead to availability and fair pricing, no matter how you look at it. For someone like me, who don't know Japanese well enough to read original releases, healthy global market is crucial. And elitist thinking simply doesn't help with that. I can't reasonably discuss your financial situation, but for a long time I don't really buy games other than VNs and still, without Steam sales I would most likely look for another hobby (or give up on my principles and start pirating things).

Gamers in general might be "spoiled" and clueless about VNs, but it's not their role to know better or care about VN developer's interests, they should care about their own interest and their fun. And maybe it's the role of fans like us to spread a positive image of the genre and educate people a bit. But above all, we should fight for a place where VNs are accessible to as many people as possible and still profitable enough for developers to make them produce/localise more. Steam is a powerful platform that can most likely deliver both, no matter how it's dominated by the "filthy masses" masturbating to Sakura games bought on sale for 5 bucks. Or whatever image of Steam VN reader you have.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Plk_Lesiak

[Kenshin_sama]

  On 11/9/2017 at 9:47 PM, Narcosis said:

I actually preferred when less people knew what vn's were and they didn't occupy the Steam store front.

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Why not just pretend they don't exist? I don't mind at all that VNs are getting more exposure if it leads to more sales and localizations.

No matter what it is you're talking about, mainstream interests will usually dominate conversations on popular social platforms, and the majority of those people will want to stick to what they know and unfairly criticize anything that takes them out of their comfort zone. And I think that's fine; there's really no need to justify your hobby unless you feel the urge to start an argument you might not win (I've done it a few times myself, lol).

Personally, I feel that the less involved I am with toxic communities, the easier it is for me to enjoy what I like. Sometimes it's just not worth it to be active (or even just to lurk) on a popular forum.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Kenshin_sama

[Narcosis]

  On 11/10/2017 at 2:16 AM, Kenshin_sama said:

Why not just pretend they don't exist? I don't mind at all that VNs are getting more exposure if it leads to more sales and localizations.

No matter what it is you're talking about, mainstream interests will usually dominate conversations on popular social platforms, and the majority of those people will want to stick to what they know and unfairly criticize anything that takes them out of their comfort zone. And I think that's fine; there's really no need to justify your hobby unless you feel the urge to start an argument you might not win (I've done it a few times myself, lol).

Personally, I feel that the less involved I am with toxic communities, the easier it is for me to enjoy what I like. Sometimes it's just not worth it to be active (or even just to lurk) on a popular forum.

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I think you got me wrong. I wasn't talking about Fuwanovel. I wrote about western community in general. Fuwanovel is a non-factor on scale of toxicity; it's a nursery for fans with both relatively nice and helpful people. Stepping outside is equal to throwing yourself off into an abyss of despair.

I'm also happy about vn's getting more and more exposition nowadays, but it's not really the kind of exposition I'd really love to see, because it's focused on titles that are - to put it bluntly - not deserving it at all. Poor games. Or perhaps not bad in their own way, but really mediocre and bland. Those "mainstream" vn's are exactly tailored towards your casual steam users, who like japanese media. Meanwhile, good games, that really deserve attention get neglected, out of many different factors. A lot of people aren't even willing to give them a chance, because they are too long, because they cost too much, because they aren't about cute waifus bickering around etc. The list goes on and on. They prefer to buy those short, shallow games toppled with censored porn over actual story-driven vn's, because they are more willing to throw away 5-10$ for a couple hours of fun, rather than pay 20-35$ for full length games which are often at least 25-35+ hours long, present much higher quality and bring more entertainment. If only such poor games get so much reception and become a store front for vn's, people start to treat them as a standard, which not only lowers the overall quality reception, but decreases the quality of potential future games as well. If devs can escape with such creations and earn a lot in the process, why would they bother making anything more ambitious? This is exactly what happened to the japanese market. It turns potentially artistic endeavours into cheap, mass produced knock-offs with sole prospect to earn as much as possible; commercialism, ho. For a while it's what a lot of publishers have been doing so far, but I don't want people to connect the word "visual novel" only with games such as Nekopara, KARAKARA or Lovekami. There's a place for all those games, but it's simply unfair when only one small group gets a positive treatment, while the rest sinks into obscurity.

[Kirashi]

I may be out of topic but a quick question:

So far, Sakura game released their game on steam, then released a 18 patch later. But I think I read somewhere that steam won't allow that anymore (I don't remember where, I am not sure that's true). But if that's the case, I guess it can be trouble for their business right?