Do You Prefer Happy Endings Or Bittersweet/More Realistic Endings?

[LemiusK]

This thread is a variation of sorts from Rain Spectre's topic about ending structure.

A trend I noticed about "True Ends" is that many of them can have predictable sappy ends where everything turns out alright, or at least much happier than "Normal Ends" and, of course, "Bad Ends." As with all things in life, there are exceptions, of course, like Heaven's Feel in Fate/Stay Night, but most of them are so "wrapped up" and tied with a tidy little ribbon bow, where every protagonist makes it out alive and move on with their life. Obviously, real life doesn't work like that and sometimes, such a formula can feel trite and unrealistic.

Sometimes, even the "Bad Ends" can be much better written than the "True End" because of this. This might surprise you, but many people actually like tragic endings. If that's not enough to shock you... many people actually like feeling sad, which is why they read sad stories that make them cry. There's a catharsis that comes from crying or even seeing fictional characters go through tragedies that reflect our own. Sometimes, the "Bad End" is just that powerful or impactful enough that the "True End" feels predictable, generic, or just plain lame.

Personally, I don't mind "True Ends" that are written well, but sometimes, I do find myself preferring the more emotional and depressing "Bad Ends," especially when I'm a sucker for tragic stories myself. I don't really like it when everything gets "wrapped up" neatly at the "True End." That just cheapens the value of "Bad Ends" since they are just going to turn out alright in the end anyway, no point crying over some pointless "Bad End."

In particular, Cartagra made me feel something like that.

Spoiler

In spite of a few deaths, Shugo and Kazuna went on with their lives blissfully like a happy couple. Doesn't matter that Shugo's job as a detective would endanger Kazuna's life and possibly affect her acting career; they just have to be together like some generic couple from the many, many romance stories out there.

That's why I preferred the "Normal End," especially where Kazuna's life decisions are concerned.

Anyway, enough about me. What about you? How do you feel about "True Ends" being predictable and schmaltzy mainstream material? Do you like any particular "Normal Ends" more than "True Ends"?

Edited November 29, 2018 by LemiusK

[adamstan]

While I don't have anything against sad stories, please give me at least a little glimpse of hope at the ending. I doesn't have to be all super happy, but pure tragedy or depressing ending might be too much for me.

AIR is good example of this - while its true ending was very sad, it wasn't utterly depressing, at least for me

Spoiler

because while Misuzu had died, she died happy, and Kanna was finally freed from the curse

So while it is different from other famous KEY nakige - there wasn't happy ending like final run of AfterStory in Clannad or "that's not enough!" ending in Little Busters, it still OK for me and I rated AIR equally with those two, and considered it really great story.

But if the "True Ending" is Bad Ending, meaning there's no hope, everything goes wrong and everybody dies in vain - that's too much for me. It probably would make me more angry than sad - so no catharsis from crying either VNs for me are kind of escapism, so I don't look for them to repeat worst aspects of reality.

Edited November 29, 2018 by adamstan

[LemiusK]

1 minute ago, adamstan said:

So while it is different from other famous KEY nakige - there wasn't happy ending like final run of AfterStory in Clannad or "that's not enough!" ending in Little Busters,

Clannad's ending in particular makes me cringe, especially now that you've brought up AIR's ending. 

Spoiler

Reset buttons suck.

 

2 minutes ago, adamstan said:

VNs for me are kind of escapism, so I don't look for them to repeat worst aspects of reality.

I respect that, and I understand this thread will most probably receive similar responses regarding escapism. That said, I feel like there's also a kind of satisfaction that comes from stories that reflect our reality and makes us think, "Oh yeah, that's true. Never thought of life like that before." Some level of realism is necessary, I think.

[Akshay]

It really depends. I usually want a somewhat happy ending, even if the mid-story has lots of sad parts. But if it's really well done I'd love sad ends as well. I still maintain that Amane's bad end is Grisaia's best ending.

[LemiusK]

Just now, Akshay said:

I still maintain that Amane's bad end is Grisaia's best ending.

Yep, I agree. I was just thinking of Angelic Howl as I was creating this thread. That's a prime example of "tragedy done right."

[adamstan]

5 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

That said, I feel like there's also a kind of satisfaction that comes from stories that reflect our reality and makes us think, "Oh yeah, that's true. Never thought of life like that before."

Fair point. That can be good once in a while too. Just not to overdose it. And it has to be really well done, like @Akshay said. There's popular notion - not only about games, but about culture in general, like movies, music, books etc - that "dark, sad, disturbing and depressing" equals "mature", and thus is inherently better. I strongly disagree with it.

[LemiusK]

2 minutes ago, adamstan said:

 There's popular notion - not only about games, but about culture in general, like movies, music, books etc - that "dark, sad, disturbing and depressing" equals "mature", and thus is inherently better. I strongly disagree with it.

Well, yeah, particularly in modern times, with the likes of Dark Knight and Zack Snyder.

Balance is good. Just like how Superman reflects the light and optimism of humanity, Batman reflects the darkness in us all humble humans. Balance is important. Not too light, but not too dark.

...which is why you SHOULDN'T MAKE SUPERMAN MOPEY AND MOROSE! HE'S SUPERMAN!

SUPERMAN.

Edited November 29, 2018 by LemiusK

[Clephas]

Truth be told, if the ending fits, I'm mostly fine with it.  I was even fine with the endings for Maggot Baits, which aren't exactly easy on the heart.

An ending has to satisfy to be good, and very few endings manage that... whether in VNs or books.  Heck, even if we get a satisfying ending, it is almost guaranteed that someone will come around latter and create a lame sequel to try to capitalize on the original, thus pissing off the people he is trying to leech off of. 

tbh, you have to take nakige endings for what they are. Unlike utsuge, where bittersweetness is part of the package, or a plotge, where any kind of ending might fit, by definition nakige have to have happy endings.

Your comments on true endings don't fit precisely... but when I look at what has been localized so far, I have to shrug.  Except for a few utsuge like Swan Song, true endings in the localized scene are almost universally of the type you complained about.  It almost makes me wonder if there is some kind of conspiracy...

I guess it is because I've read so many VNs over the years, but my opinion is that, while true endings are  more likely to satisfy than 'regular' endings, that ratio isn't 100%.  There have been any number of games I've played over the years where a side ending or the 'normal' ending felt more satisfying or interesting than the true ending.  I guess it is because, too often, true endings often ruin what was most fun or interesting about the setting.  I'm not particularly fond of getting rid of all the mystique of a setting solely to produce a true ending.

[LemiusK]

34 minutes ago, Clephas said:

I guess it is because I've read so many VNs over the years, but my opinion is that, while true endings are  more likely to satisfy than 'regular' endings, that ratio isn't 100%.  There have been any number of games I've played over the years where a side ending or the 'normal' ending felt more satisfying or interesting than the true ending.  I guess it is because, too often, true endings often ruin what was most fun or interesting about the setting.  I'm not particularly fond of getting rid of all the mystique of a setting solely to produce a true ending.

Precisely why a number of true endings just made me think, "So that's it? That's all there is?" I guess that sometimes, our own imagined ending, our own expectations of what the ending would be like, is just that much more satisfying or amazing than what the true ending turned out to be. A mystery box has unlimited possibilities, much like Schrodinger's Cat, 'till you open it up only to find a cheap copy of Batman v. Superman! God, the horror!

Ahem, anyway, you're correct in that satisfying endings are rather few in numbers. I think this is especially true if the main body of your story, especially the "climax," is very amazing and groundbreaking. Your ending not meeting that level of spectacle can leave readers hating the story, because the ending is what readers have to leave with after they finish the story. It's the very last imprinted memory they'll have of your story, so it's no surprise that the ending tends to leave a stronger impression on most people than the main body itself.

While it's true that "the journey matters more than the destination," an adage that I personally agree with, not many people tend to see it that way. Some even think that how the story ends determines the overall quality of the story, even if the poorly written ending makes up less than 3% of the story. I think that's just the kind of mental attachment people have with endings in general. One reason I could think of why people might feel this way is because of the impact. "Does this ending impact the characters' future in a positive way?" "Does this ending add anything important to the story, or is it just some contrived way to end it?" I think people tend to get too attached to "the proper structure" of the story rather than see the stories for what they are and appreciate them, but honestly, I fall into this mindset more often than not, so I can't blame them.

 

34 minutes ago, Clephas said:

Your comments on true endings don't fit precisely... but when I look at what has been localized so far, I have to shrug.  Except for a few utsuge like Swan Song, true endings in the localized scene are almost universally of the type you complained about.  It almost makes me wonder if there is some kind of conspiracy...

It does make you wonder. But I think it's just a case of "they're more profitable and accessible by the mainstream audience." Happy and neat endings are easy to sell because they are easy to like. I would imagine, groundbreaking storylines that defy common tropes and cliches are almost always secondary considerations for the publishers who localize and translate VNs for commercial purposes. People have to make a dime.

Edited November 29, 2018 by LemiusK

[Clephas]

5 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Precisely why a number of true endings just made me think, "So that's it? That's all there is?" I guess that sometimes, our own imagined ending, our own expectations of what the ending would be like, is just that much more satisfying or amazing than what the true ending turned out to be. A mystery box has unlimited possibilities, much like Schrodinger's Cat, 'till you open it up only to find a cheap copy of Batman v. Superman! God, the horror!

Ahem, anyway, you're correct in that satisfying endings are rather few in numbers. I think this is especially true if the main body of your story, especially the "climax," is very amazing and groundbreaking. Your ending not meeting that level of spectacle can leave readers hating the story, because the ending is what readers have to leave with after they finish the story. It's the very last imprinted memory they'll have of your story, so it's no surprise that the ending tends to leave a stronger impression on most people than the main body itself.

While it's true that "the journey matters more than the destination," an adage that I personally agree with, not many people tend to see it that way. Some even think that how the story ends determines the overall quality of the story, even if the poorly written ending makes up less than 3% of the story. I think that's just the kind of mental attachment people have with endings in general. One reason I could think of why people might feel this way is because of the impact. "Does this ending impact the characters' future in a positive way?" "Does this ending add anything important to the story, or is it just some contrived way to end it?" I think people tend to get too attached to "the proper structure" of the story rather than see the stories for what they are and appreciate them, but honestly, I fall into this mindset more often than not, so I can't blame them.

 

It does make you wonder. But I think it's just a case of "they're more profitable and accessible by the mainstream audience." Happy and neat happy endings are easy to sell because they are easy to like. I would imagine, groundbreaking storylines that defy common tropes and cliches are almost always secondary considerations for the publishers who localize and translate VNs for commercial purposes. People have to make a dime.

Be careful of falling into the 'mainstream audience' loop.  Everyone who plays niche stuff eventually hits that wall, but you have to keep in mind that a disproportionate amount of niche stuff has been localized, considering how dominant crappy SOL games are over there.  The total percentage of plotge and other types of game with actual depth to charage is something like 1:10 at best, but the localization/translation ratio over here is something closer to 1:2 if you don't count nukige.  That is something of a miracle...

[LemiusK]

Just now, Clephas said:

Be careful of falling into the 'mainstream audience' loop.  Everyone who plays niche stuff eventually hits that wall, but you have to keep in mind that a disproportionate amount of niche stuff has been localized, considering how dominant crappy SOL games are over there.  The total percentage of plotge and other types of game with actual depth to charage is something like 1:10 at best, but the localization/translation ratio over here is something closer to 1:2 if you don't count nukige.  That is something of a miracle...

Hm, you're right. But I feel like somehow, that has more to do with the publishers reading review numbers off a chart, thus still considering the "mainstream" amount of "good reviews" rather than intentionally going for actual good stories.

[Naterocks2000]

Deleted because I can't be bothered to figure out how to separate spoilers lol. That's what I get for using three different places with different spoiler methods (Reddit, Fuwa, and the discord server I frequent)

 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Naterocks2000

[Naterocks2000]

I'll just rewrite what I said lol.

 

For me, it depends on the story I am reading. Something like Yume Miru Kusuri, where more bittersweet and realistic themes are prevalent, makes sense for the endings to be the same way. In VNs like Da Capo III where the true ending gives more explanation of the plot and isn't necessarily a happy or bad ending, it makes up for its own faults by having great writing.

Now I appreciate VNs that have a happy true end, because good feels. I also appreciate when a story doesn't throw its themes out the window in favor of an " And they all live happily ever after " where that ending wouldn't really make sense in context of the story. 

[sarkasmus]

Downright depressing ones aren't exactly my favorite, but aside from that I don't mind either one.

I need a bit variety between different games though, I'm not always in the mood for something happy and not always for something sad. And after a sad one I usually need to play a happy one  so I don't feel depressed the next 3-4 days.

[LemiusK]

12 minutes ago, sarkasmus said:

And after a sad one I usually need to play a happy one  so I don't feel depressed the next 3-4 days.

This is kinda unrelated but, I'm currently reading Swan Song, and I already feel like I would need to play a happy one after this ends...

[Okarin]

Nakige are good enough for me, it's a formula that really works, and it's nice to see things improving in the end.

A good bittersweet ending is Rin's in Katawa Shoujo.

Her problems are still there, and there's absolutely no guarantee that they don't end up estranged, but for the moment, things are fine. That's the way I interpreted it.

I'm not so big on utsuge for the moment. Too extreme. Why look for a realistic, bad ending, if life provides plenty of that? I thought VNs were escapism.

[LemiusK]

6 minutes ago, Okarin said:

Why look for a realistic, bad ending, if life provides plenty of that?

Company, I suppose. Misery loves company. It's hard to go through tragedies alone. To have a story reflect that and understand your misery, that can be... uplifting in its own way.

In fact, some people are addicted to misery. It's an escapism too of its own form.

Edited November 29, 2018 by LemiusK

[alpacaman]

I'm fine with happy endings as long as they don't break the rules of the universe the story takes place in and the necessary decisions/actions made by the characters seem like ones they might actually make. Also I tend to prefer endings on a silent note over grand finales (except for action stories). Most VN endings show some character, usually the protagonist, comeing to some kind of realization or finding his resolve for something. If the story conveys that well I don't need the protagonist to climb the stairwell of a 50 storey building with a broken leg to save the girl (the VN in question at least redeemed itself with a good epilogue).

Clannad popped up several times in these discussions. Take Kotomi's route for example which probably would have had my favourite ending if

Spoiler

the writers hadn't decided to shoehorn in this kitschy "humanity is good" message with this stupid sequence of the suitcase travelling around the world. I know it served a purpose in the context of the overall message of Clannad but it still ruined the perfect moment of catharsis for Kotomi.

 

[Okarin]

But humanity is good.

[Stormwolf]

I prefer happy endings in vn. Well, doesnt have to be entirely happy but i prefer the heroine and protagonist to survive at the end with no silly cliched tropes like memory loss etc. Its funny how people call happy endings cliche, but how often dont we see memory loss, protag sacrifice, heroine death etc? Way too often..

[alpacaman]

3 hours ago, Okarin said:

But humanity is good.

Sorry, I meant it as in humankind, not being a good person. But still, a message doesn't necessarily have to be wrong to be misplaced.

Edited November 29, 2018 by alpacaman

[Funyarinpa]

Both can work very well, but bittersweet is best.

[Thyndd]

I like sad but not unnecessarily depressing. Or, to put it differently, I like the kind of sad that actually leaves you with a good aftertaste, as it has some message or meaning and it's not just sad for the heck of it. If it's nonsensical tragedies what I want to read, I'll pick up the newspaper or something. 

[Dreamysyu]

I don't really care if the ending is happy, bittersweet, downer or whatever, as long as it thematically fits the story of the main game and doesn't feel out of place. The biggest problem is to keep the right balance. A happy ending in an overall depressing story might feel completely out of place and utterly unrealistic in one case, and as a nice reward for the protagonist for all the hardships they had to go through in the other case.

And I also noticed that in a lot of cases the fact whether the ending is happy or not comes down to your personal interpretation. I was actually really surprised that people consider the ending to Princess Tutu anime happy, and there are a lot of examples among VNs I've read too (which I probably shouldn't name due to spoilers).

[MirāNoHebi]

As long as it fits the story, I don't really have a preference on if the ending is 'bitter' or 'sweet' or 'happy'. As long as a relationship doesn't end just because of some plot hand wave, or "this is just a passing phase" in case of yuri romance novels, I don't really place an importance on how the story ends. Relationship continues, breaks, or is mended after breaking all fine for me.