Hello, Goodbye Steam Storepage Removed

[Rain Spectre]

1 minute ago, Swim Swim said:

Drawings arent real so they dont have rights and neither ages....You can commit mass murders in several popular western game, yet as I recall murder also illegal in RL. So by ur logic everything should be banned in games thats illegal in RL... Damn, SJW's allows no fun in games

SJW's are completely ass-backwards in their ethics. 

How many VNs have lolis that act children? I feel like that's a dying trope.

[UnlimitedMoeWorks]

1 minute ago, Swim Swim said:

Damn, SJW's allows no fun in games

I wouldn't go down the anti-SJW rabbit hole if I were you. I've already been down there, blaming everything on SJWs once, and it was not pretty.

[Stormwolf]

1 minute ago, Swim Swim said:

Drawings arent real so they dont have rights and neither ages....You can commit mass murders in several popular western game, yet as I recall murder also illegal in RL. So by ur logic everything should be banned in games thats illegal in RL... Damn, SJW's allows no fun in games

In this case it's your logic which has faulted. You've practically not understood my point at all. Try reading it and rereading it. If it doesn't sink in, give it a few years. I'll give you a major hint: I don't personally like that these games are removed from steam.

[Rain Spectre]

"Flashbacks to me trying to argue to the TV Tropes mods to unban the Baldr Sky page."

[LemiusK]

11 minutes ago, UnlimitedMoeWorks said:

I guess maybe I still do? You do make a point. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been this pissed off at the news.

Well, you do still like anime, and VNs often use the artstyle of anime, so I'm not surprised if you had felt like Valve is acting not just anti-VN, but also anti-anime. That might explain why you're so pissed off.

[Swim Swim]

7 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

In this case it's your logic which has faulted. You've practically not understood my point at all. Try reading it and rereading it. If it doesn't sink in, give it a few years. I'll give you a major hint: I don't personally like that these games are removed from steam.

I understand perfectly, you wrote if a drawing looks like a 12 year old then she 12 years old, before edit... I dont like this thinking at all, and frequently see this mentioned "underage girls" looking less than 18 years old because she has no breast or her face too cutesy etc...Ignoring the fact that these drawings usually dont have child like personality, also in Asia many 25+ year old girl looks like less than 18... There is no solution for these people, they just hate the art style and would never accept it no matter what they want SJW like design like Alloy and New Lara etc .

[Stormwolf]

Just now, Swim Swim said:

I understand perfectly, you wrote if a drawing looks like a 12 year old then she 12 years old, before edit... I dont like this thinking at all, and frequently see this mentioned "underage girls" looking less than 18 years old because she has no breast or her face too cutesy etc...Ignoring the fact that these drawings usually dont have child like personality, also in Asia many 25+ year old girl looks like less than 18... There is no solution for these people, they just hate the art style and would never accept it no matter what they want SJW like design like Alloy and New Lara etc .

Hmm.. Nope, you still don't understand. Second hint: regardless what you or I say, it might not hold up in court in steam is sued for selling games which depicts child pornography.

[UnlimitedMoeWorks]

6 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Well, you do still like anime, and VNs often use the artstyle of anime, so I'm not surprised if you had felt like Valve is acting not just anti-VN, but also anti-anime. That might explain why you're so pissed off.

You may be right. TBH, I'm not sure what my feelings towards VNs are. I claim I don't like them, yet, I do like them on a very deep level. It's like I'm afraid to admit I actually like VNs.

I'm a tsundere!

[bakauchuujin]

10 minutes ago, Swim Swim said:

I understand perfectly, you wrote if a drawing looks like a 12 year old then she 12 years old, before edit... I dont like this thinking at all, and frequently see this mentioned "underage girls" looking less than 18 years old because she has no breast or her face too cutesy etc...Ignoring the fact that these drawings usually dont have child like personality, also in Asia many 25+ year old girl looks like less than 18... There is no solution for these people, they just hate the art style and would never accept it no matter what they want SJW like design like Alloy and New Lara etc .

To add to this, art also usually exagerates, at least when it doesn't try to be realistic. Drawing a character to look youger than she is generally means exagerating it more than the intended age she would look like in real life, at least I think that is the case. Also the anime artstyle generally lacks facial details that are important clues to someones age. Then there are things like different artstyles with some having character designs that look younger than they are supposed to be and this also applies both to sexual titles and non sexual titles. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by bakauchuujin

[LemiusK]

5 minutes ago, bakauchuujin said:

To add to this, art also usually exagerates, at least when it doesn't try to be realistic. Drawing a character to look youger than she is generally means exagerating it more than the intended age she would look like in real life, at least I think that is the case. Also the anime artstyle generally lacks facial details that are important clues to someones age. Then there are things like different artstyles with some having character designs that look younger than they are supposed to be and this also applies both to sexual titles and non sexual titles. 

I would also like to throw in the fact that Asians happen to age much slower in appearance than westerners, so it's not surprising at all for artists to reflect teenage Asians as younger than they actually are. A girl who's 18 might very well look like she's 13 or 15 sometimes, especially if she has a late growth spurt.

[alpacaman]

This is not about morals or realism though (if it got taken down for loli content). It's perfectly understandable when people at Steam are careful about approving titles that could potentially get them sued or even result in prison sentences for executives for distributing something that legally qualifies as child pornography in various countries. In most EU countries even depicting people who are styled to look like minors in pornography is illegal and laws don't distinguish between drawn or real depictions.

Edited December 5, 2018 by alpacaman

[MaggieROBOT]

We don't even know if loli is the problem in this case (well, one of the heroines IS a middle schooler), but the question is always always "your loli mileage may vary". What's even constitutes a loli for a game to be banned because of it? For some people it's actual kids, for some people it's "cute and with small breasts" like Swin Swin exemplified, for others it's any underage character. There's absolutely no consensus. Hell, I remember seeing in Steam forums people complaining how in Fureraba the girls looks like 13 (yeah, sure.......). The "all characters are above 18+" doesn't fly with us, let alone with people that equates cute/moe = kid. They go for art alone.

Valve's policy being really vague also doesn't help. Like Stormwolf said, it seems valid for them to try to avoid the legal risk and ban anything loli/shota, but that's not really written there anywhere nor what constitutes a loli for them.

Edited December 5, 2018 by MaggieROBOT

[kokoro]

Just now, MaggieROBOT said:

We don't even know if loli is the problem in this case (well, one of the heroines IS a middle schooler), but the question is always always "your loli mileage may vary". What's even constitutes a loli for a game to be banned because of it? For some people it's actual kids, for some people it's "cute and with small breasts" like Swin Swin exemplified, for others it's any underage character. There's absolutely no consensus. Hell, I remember seeing in Steam forums how in Fureraba the girls looks like 13 (yeah, sure.......). The "all characters are above 18+" doesn't fly with us, let alone with people that equates cute/moe = kid. They go for art alone.

Valve's policy being really vague also doesn't help. Like Stormwolf said, it seems valid for them to try to avoid the legal risk and ban anything loli/shota, but that's not really written there anywhere nor what constitutes a loli for them.

Koharu looks very lolish lmao, but I don't think that's the problem. It's those two ban-happy admins apparently.

[LemiusK]

Well, when Maggie put it that way, it becomes clearer from a business standpoint why it's just more convenient to ban those games. Saves them the trouble of getting into a lawsuit and losing money. It's bad for their business.

[MaggieROBOT]

1 minute ago, kokoro said:

Koharu looks very lolish lmao, but I don't think that's the problem. It's those two ban-happy admins apparently.

you're quite right, but if I got everything right from this whole story is that they are using the excuse that "those games exploit children", no?

sound the horns, it's the lolipocalypse!!!

[UnlimitedMoeWorks]

Just now, LemiusK said:

Well, when Maggie put it that way, it becomes clearer from a business standpoint why it's just more convenient to ban those games. Saves them the trouble of getting into a lawsuit and losing money. It's bad for their business.

Does Hello Goodbye have a literal loli heroine? If so, then the ban could be justified.

[LemiusK]

Just now, UnlimitedMoeWorks said:

Does Hello Goodbye have a literal loli heroine? If so, then the ban could be justified.

Well, "literal" or not wasn't the issue; just "looking loli-ish" would be bad business alone, since it attracts unwanted lawsuits.

[Stormwolf]

Just now, LemiusK said:

Well, "literal" or not wasn't the issue; just "looking loli-ish" would be bad business alone, since it attracts unwanted lawsuits.

Did you forget your arguments after maggie posted? 

[LemiusK]

Just now, Stormwolf said:

Did you forget your arguments after maggie posted? 

Well, not forget, just agreeing with her viewpoint.

[UnlimitedMoeWorks]

Honestly, I'm confused at this point. Is this about an unwarranted ban by two ban-happy employees, or a loli issue?

[Stormwolf]

Just now, LemiusK said:

Well, not forget, just agreeing with her viewpoint.

Hers was the same as mine, yet you changed your mind pretty quickly there.

[alpacaman]

18 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

I still stand by what I said earlier, with the added context of "I understand why Valve considers it bad business, but I still don't accept their narrow-minded mentality."

So you consider not wanting to possibly commit a crime narrow-minded?

[UnlimitedMoeWorks]

Ok seriously, is this about an unwarranted ban issue or not? Now it seems like it's a completely separate loli issue.

[alpacaman]

2 minutes ago, UnlimitedMoeWorks said:

Ok seriously, is this about an unwarranted ban issue or not? Now it seems like it's a completely separate loli issue.

There is a middle-schooler heroine. There is no way she is not considered under-age by any court. In Germany (and most of the EU afaik) even just having a CG of her in a "sexualised pose" would constitute child pornography and distribution of such is a felony.

10 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

It's over-simplifying a complex matter. Like I have said, the depicted girls were oftentimes intended to be 18 year old adults. Whether people bother to take this into consideration or not determines either how open-minded they are, or how much concern they put into making a profit over the passion for visual novels.

And besides, I don't really care for law that twists facts into their own self-centered logic.

Maybe you start caring about a law as soon as you risk going to prison for breaking it.

[Mr Poltroon]

15 minutes ago, UnlimitedMoeWorks said:

Ok seriously, is this about an unwarranted ban issue or not? Now it seems like it's a completely separate loli issue.

Some VNs are being banned from Steam. Reason unknown. Currently theorised that it is because of the depiction of minors (high-school students and/or young-looking/acting characters) in pornographic games.
They might go back on it, or they might not. Valve seems to work in waves a lot, in that they go too far, then back off, then forwards again, and so on until it stagnates.