Western Visual Novels

[Kou]

I'm simply just curious of your opinion of western visual novels. I have a favorite right now, Kendo Crush, but I want to talk about other visual novels original from the west. Sorry if there is already a Thread containing the same topic.

[Nosebleed]

A lot of them cater to western otakus way too much and come out as weeaboo material. I usually don't have many hopes for western vns.

One big reason is because the English language is awful for written works unless you have a really high proficiency level which, let's face it, most western vn creators do not. And so most western vns which are often just doujinshi works tend to be mid to low end with unoriginal elements, writing and characters that try and cater to the masses instead of catering to the author who should be writing for their enjoyment and not with the mentality that it will sell. Then again a lot of Japanese devs do this too so this is a bit biased.

There's way too many people out there that try to write their own novel nowadays and inevitably the majority will fail or else the world would be populated by authors.

Now this is not to say all western vns are bad. That's definitely not the case. But i always stay cautious of most of these types of vns until i see a significant amount of the work and it pleases me in some form.

[Mephisto]

Most western VNs are really short, and I always finish them with thinking "Wait, that's it?", and leave feeling unfulfilled. 

[Ashadow700]

I hear a lot of people talking badly about western VNs, and I'll be honest: I don't get that. I don't get that at all. 

 

Yes, 99% of western VNs cannot compare with the Japanese once, but I always figured that was due to lack of experience and funding. The japaniese are professional creators with years of experience of making these games, whereas most western are just starting out.

It always seemed so unreasonable, even borderline unfair, to compare western developers to Key, TypeMoon, Nitro+ and what-have-you.

[Funyarinpa]

The ones I've seen are, in fact, more science-fiction'y than doujinshi, etc. and actually, while I do not really think they will hold up too well against their Japanese counterparts, I usually have hope for them. (Exogenesis comes to mind.)

[InvertMouse]

For a lot of people, if it is not from Japan, it is automatically -70 points. If the voices are in English, all the acting are horrible by default.

 

Western VNs have a tough time competing because of the massive differences in budget as well. That will obviously have an effect on the artwork quality, which is the deciding factor for most people. We all want to say it is about the story, but come on, now.

 

The whole everyone wants to write a novel thing is true also.

[Life]

I've read some western ones but they have all been very short and have mostly been by small groups who just wanted to make a VN without a large budget. I haven't come across a western VN company but we can always have hope. The first VN I have read is a western VN (moonlight walks) and it was the thing that got me into VNs. What I'm probably saying is that western VN's have potential. They just haven't gotten there yet.

[InvertMouse]

So do most of you folks reckon a VN should be long in order for it to be satisfying? How many hours do you think it should be minimum?

 

In an interview with Drakengard 3's director, he said something like, if a game is only three minutes long but it's the most beautiful thing you've ever experienced, then can you say you got value out of it? No, we're unable to make games like that because of society's expectations. Or something along those lines.

[Life]

So do most of you folks reckon a VN should be long in order for it to be satisfying? How many hours do you think it should be minimum?

 

In an interview with Drakengard 3's director, he said something like, if a game is only three minutes long but it's the most beautiful thing you've ever experienced, then can you say you got value out of it? No, we're unable to make games like that because of society's expectations. Or something along those lines.

Not really. It's just for me personally, I felt like a few of the shorter ones could be stretched out a bit. If it's done in a short manner and done smoothly then I would like it but sometimes it just feels a little off?

[InvertMouse]

Not really. It's just for me personally, I felt like a few of the shorter ones could be stretched out a bit. If it's done in a short manner and done smoothly then I would like it but sometimes it just feels a little off?

 

I reckon you are in the same boat as many others . Maybe it is because we are used to VNs being quite long, so when one is short, it feels weird? I have a tough time finishing VNs these days because they are all so long. Hours upon hours of those slice of life scenes. Tough to debate how much of it should be in there.

[Darklord Rooke]

So do most of you folks reckon a VN should be long in order for it to be satisfying? How many hours do you think it should be minimum?

 

Meaningful choices which affect the game world in real and complex ways would be nice, as opposed to superficial choices and routes which lead to a 'good ending' a 'bad ending' and a 'different girl.'

[laiktail]

I can speak from the perspective of someone who's planning to make my own VN in the West.

1. The budget is huge even for a simple VN. This simply doesn't work for most poor doujinshis. Things are a bit cheaper if you use the current engines out there, which I think are not ideal. I'm planning to hire someone to build one. As an extremely rough estimate, I'd put the cost to be $30-40,000 to make something of a decent enough quality to par the Japanese VNs. Other people might have a better perspective on this though.
2. There's many more skills than writing involved in actually creating a VN that people will love. There's the obvious things like music and graphics. And then there's more subtle things like menus, transitions, etc. that all contribute to the overall feel of the project. 

3. Prejudice. Even I am very sceptical of a Western VN, despite setting up a project to write one. So you'll automatically and probably subconsciously not be as open to it, even if you don't want to. 
4. Lack of editing. Again, a cost-issue. 
5. VOICE ACTING. This is the hardest issue for me currently because, let's face it: 90% of people prefer subs rather than dubs. I'd love to get a great voice actor. I think the workaround for this is not to get a voice actor at all - just an actor who has no idea what a VN is but knows how to act. Again, super-expensive. 
6. Weeabooism. I think VNs might try a bit too hard to be Japanese and are thus written like subtitles for an anime, when they should be produced as original works in English. Plus, an awesome tsundere in Japanese games does not translate to an equally awesome tsundere in English games. 

TL;DR Basically, the problem is cost. 

So the solution is brevity. I think a 2 hour VN is more than enough for a Western indie with hardly any budget. The market is super-niche (anime is a niche, VN is a niche within a niche). Speaking of the VN that I want to do, I'll put up a post with the premise of my own and see if it's something people are interested in reading.  

 

[Pabloc]

Western VNs are crap.*

 

My biggest problem with those is the writing. Sometimes it's not even proper English, and those that are actually readable, usually have a very weak content. There's simply nothing interesting in them. No engaging plot, no emotional impact, not even plotless porn. Nothing.

And as it was already mentioned, most of the time the Weebooism is very strong in them. The "writers" try to imitate Japanese setting and various tropes, even though they have no idea about those, and the "artists" try to imitate anime-style art, even though they have no idea how to draw it. The end result is an inconsistent, awfully-looking mess.

 

Western amateur creators usually just want to create a VN (or rather - an imitation of a Japanese VN). Japanese amateur creators usually want to tell a story using VN as a medium. That fundamental difference is what makes a lot of amateur Western VNs awful, while their amateur Japanese counterparts are usually at least readable.

 

I like short VNs and I have read quite a few small, freeware Japanese titles. Sure, they obviously aren't on the same level as big, commercial productions, but almost all of them were decent (and some were genuinely good). They frequently rely on photographic backgrounds, simplistic art, music, etc. but the end result most of the time is at least esthetically passable (and often it's actually quite neat). Art really isn't that vital, as long as it doesn't look like it was drawn in Paint by a 5 years old kid (like in some OELVNs ), it's fine. VNs are a medium focused on storytelling (well, or on ero ), and this is the most important thing here. Average Japanese doujins do have some kind of story to tell, that despite a short length, is often actually interesting (or at least isn't insultingly retarded).

 

Vocies aren't necessary at all. Short Japanese doujins almost never have those, and it's not a problem.

Music? There are tons of very cheap or even free materials out there, you can create pretty decent stuff with those.

Of course, if you want to make something really serious, it will cost a lot. But a small amateur project doesn't have to be all that expensive. How much could something like this cost? And it's leagues better than your average Western crap.

 

Of course, not all Japanese amateur VNs are good/decent, there's some crap out there as well. But the gap in quality between them and Western titles is quite significant. The top-tier OELVNs (like Katawa Shoujo) are still faaaaar weaker then something like Narcissu, True Remembrance or whatever we take as a top-tier freeware Japanese doujin. And titles like KS are exceptionally rare, the majority of OELVNs are much worse.

 

* Jokes aside, there certainly are a few notable exceptions.

Katawa Shoujo aside, for example In This Dream of Ours is a decent title that actually manages to do the Japanese setting right, Sugar's Delight is a decent nukige, Juniper's Knot has good art (and almost good story... except for the retarded ending), Lovecraft: Beyond the Wall of Sleep has good writing ... Well, and Cinders doesn't look like yet another Weeboo BS, so I guess I'll give it a try someday too.

[Zalor]

The problem with many western VN's is that many of them try too hard to be like Japanese ones. On the flip side, I feel that western VNs hold far more potential for meaningful story telling then Japanese ones currently do. Before I get flamed for saying this allow me to explain. Japanese VNs have fallen into the same trap that contemporary anime has, they cater to Otaku because catering to Otaku is safe and easy profit. While there might be some recent Japanese VNs that are innovative and different from the typical high school romance, I am sure that they weren't as successful as the standard stuff. Western VNs on the other hand have virtually no market and thus need an innovative story to break through. In fact If you look at the western VN indie company Dischan, that is what they are doing. And to be honest with you, I would rather reread the two VNs Dischan currently have out (Dysfunctional Systems episode 1, and Juniper's Knot), then read another uninspired school romance or crappy thriller. Another reason Dischan is the saving grace for Western VNs is because not only do they strive to tell unique stories but their quality of writing is actually good. Once more western VN makers realize that Dischan's style is successful (or semi-successful), there will be a shift to using the visual novel medium to tell stories in a more western fashion. Then once western VNs evolve to have their own distinctive style, I personally think they will be better then what we are currently getting from Japan.

 

I want to read VN stories that are more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kX6M1DpSa4

 

 

And I want less of stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzFL2k-x8n8

 

Edit:

 

 

Japanese amateur creators usually want to tell a story using VN as a medium.

The top-tier OELVNs (like Katawa Shoujo) are still faaaaar weaker then something like Narcissu, True Remembrance or whatever we take as a top-tier freeware Japanese doujin. And titles like KS are exceptionally rare, the majority of OELVNs are much worse.

 

And when was True Remembrance and Narcissu first released? Japan's VNs have become far less innovative where as Western VNs are only getting better. Going with Dischan as a prime example.

[Nosebleed]

So do most of you folks reckon a VN should be long in order for it to be satisfying? How many hours do you think it should be minimum?

For me it's not about the duration but the story in itself. It's all about wether or not they can make the story and characters interesting. If it's all a bland copy paste of stereotypical japanese character tropes and highschool settings (or other stereotypical equivalent) then of course I'm going to dislike it and prefer the ones made by japanese devs, even if it's cliché at least it's original cliché.

 

Like I said my only problem with western vns is when they try hard to copy stuff from japanese games and it just doesn't work for me.

But it's not impossible to recreate a japanese styled vn in the west, the problem is those who try are not really authors, just some people that thought it'd be fun to make a vn and they don't have the skill to write a proper story.

I'd much rather see originality in western vns. That's when you do a good job.

[Zalor]

I'd much rather see originality in western vns. 

 

Have you checked out the Western VN company Dischan, that is exactly what they are doing. 

[Nosebleed]

Have you checked out the Western VN company Dischan, that is exactly what they are doing. 

Yeah I've heard good things about them. I want to try Dysfunctional Systems when they release all of it.

I guess I should start with Jupiter's Knoct

 

I'm happy that there's some people with the guts to make their own original work and not try and cater to otakus by copy pasting japanese stereotypes.

 

Just like Pabloc said it's fundamental that people who make VNs (amateur or not) want to write a story and just use the VN format as a medium and not decide to make a vn because they feel like it and then come up with the story while they're at it.

[Pabloc]

@Zalor

Well, sure - there are too many generic mainstream high school romance moeges, with that I can certainly agree. But, since those are very popular, and the Japanese market is quite saturated with them, it's Japanese indie developers and small companies that most certainly need innovative stories to break through. Precisely because they can't fight with huge competition on more mainstream grounds. And they kinda are doing that, though you have to dig through a pile of generic stuff to find something more interesting (and obviously, it almost never gets translated).

 

But what about Western developers? Unlike in Japan, there's pretty much only indie scene here. Market is empty, they have zero competition (save for not-so-accessible Japanese titles), and two powerful tools (Steam and Kickstarter) at their disposal. They can spawn whatever garbage they want. And they kinda are doing that - people are willing to throw ridiculous amounts of money on some abhorrent Gender-Bender DNA Twister BS, 3D-mockery of a Monster Girl Quest, or mentioned in this very thread Kendo Crush, that seems like a perfectly generic Japanese-VN-wannabe, only without ero (just read the VNDB description, if that's not a "typical high school romance", I don't know what is). I really don't see any great potential here...

 

Now, we have some very creative developers on the indie game scene. Titles like Don't Starve, Knock Knock, FTL, Bastion, Ai War: Fleet Command, Cortex Command and many others - they breath some fresh air into time-tested mechanics and genres, and most importantly - are fun to play. If similar people started writing VNs (Western-style, not Weeboo-style), things could get interesting. But for now, with the minuscule amount of semi-competent writers on the OELVN scene, I don't see this happening anytime soon.

 

As for Dischan, Juniper's Knot made me very skeptical about their writing skills. It had probably the most unrealistic and out-of-character ending possible. And now apparently they don't even have Doomfest anymore, you won't see me hyped for any of their titles in the foreseeable future...

[Narcosis]

Western visual novels tend to be imperfect. Their biggest issue lies within the inability of their creators to use them as a form for their writing. Instead, most amateur works dwelve deeper into the otaku-pandering hell, blatantly copying japanese mindset, which does not work for western-related enviroments. Our general writing style is far different from japanese, we have a different perception of this medium as well. It's important that people who create vn's in the first place should be the real writers, instead of fans who simply "want to make a vn", because they like them.

 

As for the Dischan, they could make a difference; unfortunately, real Dischan is no more. Cradle Song remains a dropped project, since the lead artist and designer, Simon "Doomfest" Ma permanently left Dischan. Cradle Song had a lot of potential, but I doubt it will be ever finished; even if it will be picked up again, it won't be the game it was ought to become. Nonetheless, it was a decent example, that headed in the right direction with high quality visuals, art and appropriate writing. I'm not giving any hopes to Dysfunctional systems anymore because of the same issue - Dischan's main advantage was within it's specific art, made by Doomfest; it was it's sign and without it, it won't be the same anymore. Juniper's Knot so far was their best released work, but it was more of a short experiment concluded along the nanowrimo challenge; it's short length was a part of it. In my eyes, Dischan's future is rather dim and excluding Dysfunctional Systems that might be perceived as a final breath, I doubt they will continue to work on visual novels, considering their current top priority plan is to work on the animation.

[Darklord Rooke]

All the creative Western talent probably think 'I could create a groundbreaking VN and sell maybe 10,000 copies, or I could turn that into a groundbreaking adventure game (like "The Walking Dead") and potentially sell millions.'

[Zalor]

@Zalor

Well, sure - there are too many generic mainstream high school romance moeges, with that I can certainly agree. But, since those are very popular, and the Japanese market is quite saturated with them, it's Japanese indie developers and small companies that most certainly need innovative stories to break through. Precisely because they can't fight with huge competition on more mainstream grounds. And they kinda are doing that, though you have to dig through a pile of generic stuff to find something more interesting (and obviously, it almost never gets translated).

 

But what about Western developers? Unlike in Japan, there's pretty much only indie scene here. Market is empty, they have zero competition (save for not-so-accessible Japanese titles), and two powerful tools (Steam and Kickstarter) at their disposal. 

 

Yeah, when I was referring to Japanese VNs going down hill I was referring to commercial releases. When I made my comment I sort of over looked recent Japanese indie releases. Since I don't know Japanese (yet) I honestly have no idea if their indie developers are doing anything interesting as of present. But my main point with my post was that Western VNs do hold potential, they just need to establish a market to bring in the writers that are actually competent. Honestly Western VN's main problem is that they currently lack any market, but once they find a way to adapt around this and establish a market for themselves they will be able to properly grow. One solution that I mentioned a while ago on another topic is for western VN developers to aim at readers and to write their VNs for the kindle. If western gamers aren't buying VNs maybe the readers will, it's at least worth a try.

 

As for the Dischan, they could make a difference; unfortunately, real Dischan is no more. Cradle Song remains a dropped project, since the lead artist and designer, Simon "Doomfest" Ma permanently left Dischan. Cradle Song had a lot of potential, but I doubt it will be ever finished; even if it will be picked up again, it won't be the game it was ought to become. Nonetheless, it was a decent example, that headed in the right direction with high quality visuals, art and appropriate writing. I'm not giving any hopes to Dysfunctional systems anymore because of the same issue - Dischan's main advantage was within it's specific art, made by Doomfest; it was it's sign and without it, it won't be the same anymore. Juniper's Knot so far was their best released work, but it was more of a short experiment concluded along the nanowrimo challenge; it's short length was a part of it. In my eyes, Dischan's future is rather dim and excluding Dysfunctional Systems that might be perceived as a final breath, I doubt they will continue to work on visual novels, considering their current top priority plan is to work on the animation.

 

The loss of Doomfest was definitely significant. His art work is very detailed and distinctive, a brilliant mixture of the anime style with a western artistic perspective. But I am still maintaining faith and hope that Dischan can recover from this. I don't feel we should abandon the only good representative of western VNs just because they are going through rough times. Also regarding Doomfest, his first visual novel Memo was the first VN I ever played. The story wasn't anything special (although the actual writing was decent) but it was the artwork that got me. Needless to say I've been an admirer of Doomfest's work for quite a while.

[Pabloc]

@Zalor

Well, generic, mass-produced commercial releases are often garbage, regardless of the medium.

You are wrong about Westerners not buying OELVNs though - like I mentioned, various Kickstarter projects gather tons of $$$, even though most of them look absolutely horrible. And Steam gets flooded with crap VNs as well. I don't know what kind of market those will establish, but I have very serious doubts it will promote high writing quality...

[Zalor]

@Zalor

Well, generic, mass-produced commercial releases are often garbage, regardless of the medium.

You are wrong about Westerners not buying OELVNs though - like I mentioned, various Kickstarter projects gather tons of $$$, even though most of them look absolutely horrible. And Steam gets flooded with crap VNs as well. I don't know what kind of market those will establish, but I have very serious doubts it will promote high writing quality...

 

They may manage to get more cash from Kick starter then either you or I would expect but I wouldn't call it " tons of $$$". A couple hundred thousand dollars ranging to one million dollars (in total sales and contributions for all indie western VNs) is not a true market, its a tiny pond at best. A true market for Western VNs won't happen until a breakthrough is released and makes millions, just like with what happened to Japan. Before Kanon by KEY was released VNs were predominately ero dating sims. Kanon revolutionized everything with its massive successes and from then on there were more VNs that focused on telling stories. Western VNs need a revolutionary release as well. However one problem is that a revolutionary game is doomed to fail if marketed towards western gamers since they don't read. I think a revolutionary e-book that incorporates visuals and audio has a much better chance of properly establishing VNs in the west. 

[Pabloc]

Kanon revolutionized everything with its massive successes and from then on there were more VNs that focused on telling stories.

Ugh, not really... Kanon only popularized nakiges, following up - ONE -Kagayaku Kisetsu e-, that was in turn influenced by Leaf's To Heart. If you want to talk about revolutions, talk about Chunsoft's sound novels, Leaf's visual novel series (Shizuku, Kizuato and To Heart), and maybe ELF's Doukyuusei 2 too.

 

That aside, it's hard to hope for a market for Western VNs, when we don't have any real market for Japanese titles to begin with. But there is some room here. Since the scene is apparently devoid of people who can write, maybe they should focus on literary adaptations? This pretty much deals with the script, only add pictures and music and you have a kinetic novel, that at least should be decently written (depending on the source material). Or how about a Planescape Torment VN-remake? That could work really well.

[Zalor]

maybe they should focus on literary adaptations? This pretty much deals with the script, only add pictures and music and you have a kinetic novel, that at least should be decently written (depending on the source material). 

 

I had this idea too. But definitely I think this could work. For example say if you want to adapt The Great Gatsby, you should have a relatively easy time gaining publicity since virtually every American adult has read it (or should have read it), and the writing is quite well done. All you need to accompany it with is with good visuals and good audio and theoretically you should have a success. (Just imagine reading the Great Gatsby, which takes place during the 1920's Jazz Age, while listening to 1920's Jazz; it's brilliant). We just have a few years to wait until The Great Gatsby becomes public domain... 

 

 

Ugh, not really... Kanon only popularized nakiges, following up - ONE -Kagayaku Kisetsu e-, that was in turn influenced by Leaf's To Heart. If you want to talk about revolutions, talk about Chunsoft's sound novels, Leaf's visual novel series (Shizuku, Kizuato and To Heart), and maybe ELF's Doukyuusei 2 too.

 

 Revolutions take multiple revolutionary steps, but I feel that the success of Leaf was only a stepping stone for KEY to take advantage of their style and further innovate it.