Visual novels that are not very Japanese

[InvertMouse]

Hello everyone . There are a lot of cool folks here so I feel comfortable talking this out.

 

I recently had a chat with a fellow games developer. During the discussion, I was told (not rudely so no hate needed ) that unless I made visual novels in a Japanese settings with characters with Japanese names, I am doomed to never get anywhere.

 

I have made VNs and small games in private for many years now. It is only recently that I started sharing them around. Things started well, but recently, I have hit an invisible barrier. Of course, with more money and skill, that will help, but there is no doubt something else also. In truth, even on these forums, there is no longer much interest in my endeavors. Many of the more experienced folks here would know about the marketing struggles as well. It is a hurtful journey.

 

A lot of us want to say it is about the story, etc. In truth, how much does this Japanese feel matter in VNs? I would love to know. I will always enjoy reading visual novels, and the friends I have made here are forever as well . However, I have been pondering if it is time to move to another development genre. Truth be told, I doubt things would change much (no hype). Nonetheless, I would like to talk it out.

 

Thank you heaps for hearing me out guys m(_ _)m.

[Fiddle]

There's plenty of VNs that stray from the typical aspects of Japanese or otaku culture, but are still popular. Symphonic Rain, for example, intends to give a much more European feel.

 

However, I myself might be scared to move into unfamiliar territory. The most appealing non-Japanese game, to me, would be one that seems to draw inspiration from the regular VN: art style, layout of buttons and text and such, music, etc.. However, I personally don't think it's necessary for the setting to be Japan, the names to be Japanese, or any other such matters. Quite a number of games either don't take place in Japan, or could very well take place somewhere else (Narcissu, for example, felt more fitting in America or something).

[crunchytaco]

Are games like Shikkoku no Sharnoth & Sekien no Inganock not popular? I really enjoyed them but I also have never heard them once talked about around here since I joined. Whenever I bring it up, no one responds. 

[Zalor]

 

 

 That unless I made visual novels in a Japanese settings with characters with Japanese names, I am doomed to never get anywhere.

 

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. In fact one of the few things that I have to criticize Katawa Shoujo for is that it sold out to this narrow minded belief too. Even the Japanese don't follow this. Symphonic Rain took place in a fictional Italian town, Quartett! took place in a fictional German town. The only reason westerner game developers came up with this idea is because they noticed that their target audience are western Otaku. They figured their games would be more marketable (to this incredible niche audience) if they try to give them what they are used to (a Japanese feel). In several other threads I saw this as a reason why people don't like OELVN's because this is phony. If you've never been to Japan, and you don't really know what Japan is like, then using it as a setting is kind of shallow (which marketing often is). I have maintained, and will continue to maintain that if OELVN want to flourish in the west, they must sever their ties with Japan (somewhat). The problem is that doing so would mean having to create a brand new market for VNs and abandoning the current one. The sad part is that OELVN developers who make their stuff for-profit would rather maintain their small market, then take risks and create potentially a far bigger market. Capitalism is all about risk and reward, and currently we have very few OELVN developers who are willing to actually take a risk. (Dischan being the only company that comes to mind).

 

Look at it this way. Film is a western creation, but culture's all over the world have created movies. Would the heavily acclaimed Japanese film maker Akira Kurusawa been nearly as successful if he chose to imitate western films as opposed to add his Japanese influence to his films? Hell no! The same is ultimately true with any art form. OELVNs that add their western influence (like Dischan's visual novels) ultimately contain far better writing then any VN that pretends to be Japanese.

 

I'm sorry if this comes across as rambling but I really should have went to bed two hours ago...  

[Clephas]

I think I said this before, but VNs as a medium hold a lot of potential for grabbing the comics and novel-reading crowd.  The fact that the current niche is dominated entirely by Japanese-made games just means you need to completely ignore the Japanese side of the equation.  The Japanese defined the current niche, and they have polished it until it shines... so what you need to do is use a pickaxe to carve out your own niche, ignoring the conventions that a third-rate Japanese company will do better than you anyway.

 

Imitation is frequently called the highest form of flattery, but if you are serious about making inroads in the industry with VNs you made yourself, you really do need to not even try to write something you'd see out of a Japanese company. 

[Forythos]

I absolutely agree with Zalor.  I think OELVN creators would benefit from exploiting settings that are more familiar to them rather than imitating the japanese stereotypes to cater to an established niche.  I often see people on other forums who scoff at VNs because of their anime-like aesthetics, while they still love games like Telltale's or old adventure games for example.

 

I've had the idea of a VN set in ancient Rome before, but it's pretty much at the "table corner napkin sketch" level. >_>;;

[Mephisto]

My favorite EOLVN is that small segment of Dysfunctional Systems. Although there are definitely people who will only play games that feel japanese, I really don't think that's a large factor in to making a VN a success. 

 

In fact, I think western settings are a LOT more interesting than japanese settings. Aiyoku no Eustia comes to mind here. (Obviously since it's my favorite VN ) 

[InvertMouse]

Thanks for the mature responses everyone . I can imagine getting trashed if I discussed this in other places. Always nice to chat with folks who consider every perspective before responding.

 

Fiddle and Zalor mentioned Symphonic Rain. Certainly a great example. I feel an important factor is that the game was made in Japan. If the game was produced in the West without that voice cast, I must say I have doubts it would make as much of a splash. It might even never be noticed. The art is charming, but not in the style that players typically call great. Again, if made outside of Japan, I imagine that style might get criticized far more. Not by you guys, but possibly by the rest of the market. It calls for strong consideration.

 

Fiddle, thanks for being honest with that answer. Many people here say they have no interest in blinding following the Japanese way, and some even feel negative against it. That is all good. However, whether that is how the majority of the audience feels is another question. Based on my observations on Steam Greenlight, Steam, Kickstarter, etc, it is impossible not to wonder.

 

Crunchytaco, I can't say I have heard of those games, though I am far from an expert .

 

Forythos, yeah, I also see people who scoff at the "weaboo" games, as they say, though the Kickstarter and Steam numbers (stats rather than comments) indicate otherwise.

 

Every one who has replied so far are thinking on the same line as I am. I know you guys can consider the fact that I am in the trenches, so to speak, and am experiencing things that players have no need to be troubled over. What is really going on under the hood, perhaps.

 

Certainly, I am being impatience, ambitious and greedy. That said, if I am much better off getting in through another window, I need to be doing that.

 

Thank you heaps for listening .

[Nerathim]

Umineko was very positively received and chara-design & names aside, it isn't much of a "japanese setting" there is a lot of occidental things and the game itself is based on popular  mystery novels written by western authors such as Agatha Christie or S.S Van dine.

As long as you make a good scenario the subject doesn't matter.

[Praeliator]

You can make a visual novel can take place anywhere the you wish, it doesn't have to take place in a Japanese setting for it to be successful.

Example, Zanmataisei Demonbane took place in Arkham, a fictional city in Massachusetts, USA.

 

Here's my advice, if you really are planning on making a visual novel, you make the visual novel however YOU want it to be. The story, characters, setting etc should be what YOU want it to be, because in the end I, the reader want to enjoy reading something that you poured your heart into making, not something that will just cater to narrow-mind weeaboos because "JAPANESE SETTING IS THE COOLEST, ANYTHING ELSE SUXXX".

 

Anyways, good luck if you are making a visual novel, I'll look forward to it.

[Zakamutt]

Analogue, Dyssys, Juniper's knot weren't in Japanese settings (does Korean count? maybe.) Admittedly, Analogue came after gaining a reputation for Christine with Digital: a love story being a thing and all (I suppose DTIP as well, but it really isn't as good...)

 

I think you mostly have a marketing problem. Did you talk to say, Sekai Project? Not sure if you'd pass their new standards checks and all, but it would be a decent way to get publicity if it went through.

[Flutterz]

I might be wrong, but it seems to me like a Japanese setting is a sort of shortcut. If you do have one then the setting is immediately familiar to most people who read VNs, but then the problem is that, as Clephas put it, any third-rate Japanese company can do it better than you. Using a different setting will cause some people to pay less attention to your game because of it being less familiar, but at the same time if you make something really good it'll stand out that much more. Just my 2 cents.

[Diamon]

I think it depends on what content you create. Also what do you mean by japanese setting, does it include characters tropes as well?

 

Imo, japanese VN and stories more generally seems to put more emphasis on their characters, their growth, dilemmas, evolution through the story...

I can't explain why, but I feel that japanese culture and settings kinda makes it easier to explore those themes.

 

Western market kinda prefers game and stories very plot heavy and oriented (just look at the popular TV series, or even the newest games where you have more and more complex plots).

And somehow, japanese settings kinda suck to participate in giving some mindblowing stories (I mean, fate could have happened in some other city in another country without any real difference, same goes for Rewrite I'd say).

 

So I'd say, if your story is plot heavy, a japanese setting is more restraining if anything. If it's a character centered story, then I'm not sure...

[Undying]

Dont know about the rest of the VN fans but I tend to like when I'm face with different/original ideias and scenarios, in fact I usually look for those kind of things in VN.

[Pabloc]

During the discussion, I was told (not rudely so no hate needed ) that unless I made visual novels in a Japanese settings with characters with Japanese names, I am doomed to never get anywhere.

1) If you want to create a potentially good title, I'd say something exactly opposite - if you try to make a VN with Japanese setting and characters, without being very familiar with Japan, then you are doomed to fail. Even one of the very few not-entirely-horrible OELVNs - Katawa Shoujo - completely failed with it's setting. It was only pseudo-Japanese - locations, events, characters and their way of thinking occasionally screamed "This is NOT Japan!". It's unavoidable - trying to write a story with a setting you aren't familiar with, will only turn it into an inconsistent mess.

 

That's not limited only to settings. Japanese anime-stlye art will almost always be better than Western art forcefully stylized too look like that. Their moeges will be better than Western stories trying to imitate those. And so on. If you will go out of your way to create something that feels "Japanese", just for the sake of it, you will fail. At best, it will be an imitation, weaker than actual Japanese VNs by default. Because you're not Japanese.

 

People don't value Japanese VNs over most OELVNs because they are more "Japanese". They are better, because they have consistent, believable settings, characters that act accordingly, and everything feels natural; while the latter have artificial, unconvincing settings, characters that act weird, and everything feels forced to fit some concepts that creators weren't really familiar with.

 

Of course, I'm not saying you definitely shouldn't write something with a Japanese setting. If you know what you are doing, and you really want to write it like this, go ahead. It's doable. Just don't do this solely because "VNs should be written like this", that's BS.

 

2) If you want your work to sell well, forget everything from point 1). Remember that people who actually can comprehend written text are quite few in number nowadays. You will get much better sales if you slap boobs all over the place and just write some random weeaboo crap. Sadly.

[InvertMouse]

Thank you heaps for the future responses everyone. I gave every post a thorough read .

 

Sounds like we are all on pretty much the same line. The truthful question probably needed to be, must a VN be set in Japan if the creators themselves are not Japanese. Symphonic Rain and Demonbane were mentioned in this thread. Both games, however, were released by Japanese studios. They are already in positions where their works will be noticed regardless of whether they "play by the rules", so to say.

 

Diamon, you make a great point about the Western market not being into text heavy content. I grew up with the goal of writing novels, and that is why things translated this way. Perhaps I will move elsewhere after I feel more pushes.

 

Zakamutt, yes, I am definitely doing a lot of different things behind the scenes. Of course, many big video game websites straight up have no interest in visual novels. That is no help for someone like me, who needs all the support I can get.

 

There was something I needed for Unhack. I was asked if the game has been covered by any big gaming websites. At the time, there were only small coverage. I sent them through and was ignored. Later, I kindly got the help of Siliconera. I sent that through and got a response. Apparently, being on Siliconera suddenly made Unhack a better game, from code, audio to graphics. To not be given a chance at all due to circumstances or lack of influence is infuriating. Just pursuing the very best .

 

Thank you all .

[Zalor]

2) If you want your work to sell well, forget everything from point 1). Remember that people who actually can comprehend written text are quite few in number nowadays. You will get much better sales if you slap boobs all over the place and just write some random weeaboo crap. Sadly.

 

I think this is what InvertedMouse was asking about. That if you are an OELVN developer are you best off (financially) if you add large breasts and "write random weeaboo crap"? The answer is yes and no. If you want quick and meaningless profit then that this the correct choice to make at this time. But if one were serious then one would accept that VNs have virtually no market in the west. Instead OELVN developers should try establishing their own market by making what they want to make. The profit will be crap at first, but if you are persistent over time your profit will gradually get larger because you are producing something of quality. Eventually your VNs of quality will be noticed and the market will make a shift away from smut. Lets not forget that Japanese VNs were predominately porn games in the mid 90's. Japanese VN's have had far more time to evolve from hentai games to a medium used for storytelling. OELVNs need to go through this same evolutionary step as well. 

[Funnerific]

I think this is what InvertedMouse was asking about. That if you are an OELVN developer are you best off (financially) if you add large breasts and "write random weeaboo crap"? The answer is yes and no. If you want quick and meaningless profit then that this the correct choice to make at this time. But if one were serious then one would accept that VNs have virtually no market in the west. Instead OELVN developers should try establishing their own market by making what they want to make. The profit will be crap at first, but if you are persistent over time your profit will gradually get larger because you are producing something of quality. Eventually your VNs of quality will be noticed and the market will make a shift away from smut. Lets not forget that Japanese VNs were predominately porn games in the mid 90's. Japanese VN's have had far more time to evolve from hentai games to a medium used for storytelling. OELVNs need to go through this same evolutionary step as well. 

No they won't, because OELVNs are a niche within a niche (visual novels) within a niche (anime industry/otaku culture). OELVN developers just don't have the budget or real ability (speculation here) to contend with the Japanese visual novel popularity, and the exposition is so minimal you can't just expect to grow popular eventually.

[Clephas]

To be honest... I'm really, really interested in people making completely western-style VNs, with no Japanese influence whatsoever.  There are certain types of stories that we Westerners write better (violence, war stories, non-surreal survival, etc.).  This is more of a cultural issue than anything else...

 

The key is to cut the VN medium away from its association with otaku culture.  As long as you are dragging around that ball and chain, people won't take you seriously without an extremely high level of quality.  That means you'd be best staying away from romance-focused stories (to be blunt, the 'boy meets girl' construction is something they do better than we do, outside of Lifetime-style drama).  Pure fantasy is also going to be a no-go, as we don't do that as well as they do, either.  However, when it comes to hard sci-fi and mysteries, we have the advantage.

 

Just remember if you do choose to go the 'weaboo' way, the expectations are actually going to be heavier than if you completely abandoned Japanese influence.

[Zalor]

No they won't, because OELVNs are a niche within a niche (visual novels) within a niche (anime industry/otaku culture). OELVN developers just don't have the budget or real ability (speculation here) to contend with the Japanese visual novel popularity, and the exposition is so minimal you can't just expect to grow popular eventually.

 

What Clephas said is basically my response. OELVNs need to sever ties with Otaku culture and start all over. If OELVN do this then they can succeed. The goal is only impossible if you view western Otaku as the only people who would read OELVNs. But if people use the medium of story telling to tell western stories, with western styles of art, then you could market to completely different audiences. Such as western comic book fans, and people who read novels, ect. The problem with OELVNs currently is that many developers think they have to market towards western otaku and fail to consider other audiences.

[InvertMouse]

Thanks for the further responses everyone . They have all been helpful and really gives me plenty to consider.

[Funyarinpa]

Zero Escape was "western" in my opinion. Yes, you had Zero III and quirky plot and storyline, but it appears to have been far more appealing to Western fans, and its art styles are obviously not like any other VN.

 

Edit: I love your works! I think that as long as it is appealing and beautiful, the JP feel does not matter too much- it is just that it's easy to make gorgeous sprites with anime-like art style.

[Arvis]

To be honest... I'm really, really interested in people making completely western-style VNs, with no Japanese influence whatsoever.

What you describe exists:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/293680/

 

-Arvis

[Mephisto]

For those saying there isn't a market for EOVLNs because of japanese VNs, keep in mind that the majority of people can't read japanese.

[Darklord Rooke]

For those saying there isn't a market for EOVLNs because of japanese VNs, keep in mind that the majority of people can't read japanese.

 

What people meant by this statement is, if you choose to 'travel down the same path' the Japanese Industry usually head down, you have to remember there's many translated Japanese VNs available for 'free' in english. And because these VNs have far higher production values, they will be very hard to compete with and there may not be a market.

 

There's one exception to the above rule and that is otome games. Japan do otomes better but there's very few translated otomes available, something which the English Industry has been able to capitalise on. Infact, I believe the English industry is dominated by otomes, filling an obvious gap.

 

To be honest... I'm really, really interested in people making completely western-style VNs, with no Japanese influence whatsoever.

 

 

Ditto :3