Learn Japanese Together: Super Challenge 2013

[Tief Blau]

Oh fuck me, I just found one mistake.

Sort of, the conjugation for the たり isn't exactly 100% correct (but it isn't incorrect either).

Gah.

I will have to fix it then. Within a week I will upload a new and updated one.

[Down]

In case that would help, I found a similar kind of sheet on the web that seems to cover a lot of grammar points:

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/j_gram_summ.html

[Tay]

Just wanted to pipe in and thank everybody for the great input. When life slows down I'll be looking through all of it and adding some to the different parts of the guide.

Thanks again!

[Bolverk]

Those of you who use anki will find probably find this to be useful.

Sometimes you don't have access to your computer for a few days. Over the next months you will be using Anki very often. You should have a backup plan. I used my smartphone (android). I found this very useful as I sometimes went over the border for travel or when to my Cabin.

You can use Adobe Reader app to read the RTK PDF book. It's a free app

AnkiDroid, it's anki for Android. It's free as well.

You should be able to do the same with Iphone. There should be similar apps for both.

[Down]

Yeah, there's one on iPhone but it's a paying one (and it's quite expensive, like 25€). You can also synch your deck with your account on ankiweb though, and browse directly the website to study.

[zhurai]

Note, the

"http://nihongo-dekim...ce-reading.html ->children books"

or whatever

isn't too useful as all the download links on that page are either

1) Megaupload

2) Rapidshare

where megaupload is obviously dead

and rapidshare links don't work anymore

[Down]

Sorry, I didn't check them... Will do next time I find those kind of stuff.

[Tief Blau]

Can I start a post even if I do not intend on taking it in the advised order of action?

[zoom909]

Can I start a post even if I do not intend on taking it in the advised order of action?

What're you going to do? Inquiring minds want to know.

By the way, something occurred to me while reading your grammar cheat sheet. I never did it, but I think the very act of creating your own reference card is a good Reinforcement tool. When you condense it down, and write it out that way, I think it could stick in your memory better...

[Kotomi]

You guys are awesome. This has been a Huge help for Ryoji so thank you. Its been kinda cool because i help him review and im picking up a few things as well

[Tief Blau]

What're you going to do? Inquiring minds want to know.

By the way, something occurred to me while reading your grammar cheat sheet. I never did it, but I think the very act of creating your own reference card is a good Reinforcement tool. When you condense it down, and write it out that way, I think it could stick in your memory better...

Hm... That is actually a little difficult to say. I've met most of my goals for 2012, so right now I am just looking for something to do. In terms of Kanji, I only really need to know about 1000 by the end of this year (Kyouiku Kanji years 1-5 or the JLPT N3 kanji). I also want to start going into the fine details of Japanese speaking, and improving my listening/speaking/reading. I know (most of) my kana, I'm going to take a more roundabout method to improving my Japanese. I don't really know how to describe it, but "falling down" would be an apt word. this method involved a heavy focus on immersive speaking/listening and then reading/writing afterwards. Let me explain the underlying logic:

Heavy focus on speaking/listening will improve your reading/writing

Learn the words as spoken, its also easier because after you have some framework, you can start to match words with subtitles, and eventually pick up words just from watching anime or reading VN's. After that you already know what the word sounds like, and have a rough idea how it should be used in context. Then when you start your Kanji/reading/grammar, you already have a good idea about everything (hence "falling down" b/c most people usually start by climbing up). At that point, all you really have to do is match the spoken word with the kanji, and lets face it, manga/light novels/visual novels are very dialogue driven. You know all the words, it's just a matter of matching them up to the kanij. Writing is just based off speaking, I say everything out when I write it, just to check that it matches up with what I remember should be said.

This will be a little hard to document though....

If I actually had to spell out my goals for this year, they would be:

-Pass JLPT N4 (meet or beat my N5 score)

-Read and understand 90% of least 1 volume of めだかボックス

-Obtain, read, and understand 90% of least 1 volume of キノの旅

-Watch, and understand 90% anime w/o subtitles (improving consistancy)

-Hit the 1000 kanji mark (currently at 400ish)

[Tief Blau]

Oh fuck me, I just found one mistake.

Sort of, the conjugation for the たり isn't exactly 100% correct (but it isn't incorrect either).

Gah.

I will have to fix it then. Within a week I will upload a new and updated one.

I'm not sure if it's correct or not anymore, can anyone else confirm if the たり is correct? I still will release a new one, because that one is long overdue, but it will take a while.

-Edit-

Nevermind, I don't have the time nor the energy to make a revision, I've got 2 pages done, but it's gonna take me a long time to get the rest complete. If you don't mind waiting, I will get a new one done, eventually....

On a side note I somehow misspelled できます as でいます, but that has been fixed

-Edit2-

I should also mention that the original subete is very old, and has not ever been checked for consistency, while it should, for the most part, be accurate, I will not vouch for it. If you have any questions, feel free to fire me a PM and I will see what I can do.

Or you can wait until the update is done.

[zoom909]

Heavy focus on speaking/listening will improve your reading/writing

Learn the words as spoken, its also easier because after you have some framework, you can start to match words with subtitles, and eventually pick up words just from watching anime or reading VN's. After that you already know what the word sounds like, and have a rough idea how it should be used in context. Then when you start your Kanji/reading/grammar, you already have a good idea about everything (hence "falling down" b/c most people usually start by climbing up). At that point, all you really have to do is match the spoken word with the kanji, and lets face it, manga/light novels/visual novels are very dialogue driven. You know all the words, it's just a matter of matching them up to the kanij. Writing is just based off speaking, I say everything out when I write it, just to check that it matches up with what I remember should be said.

This will be a little hard to document though....

If I actually had to spell out my goals for this year, they would be:

-Pass JLPT N4 (meet or beat my N5 score)

-Read and understand 90% of least 1 volume of めだかボックス

-Obtain, read, and understand 90% of least 1 volume of キノの旅

-Watch, and understand 90% anime w/o subtitles (improving consistancy)

-Hit the 1000 kanji mark (currently at 400ish)

Yeah, that was what I thought as well. Even though I decided against learning speaking/listening without the opportunity to live in Japan, so my goal was just to learn to read. But the integrated approach seemed friendlier to me. I just don't learn stuff well in a vacuum. But, once you start actually reading your material, that's when the second 50% of the learning is done.

I haven't really "studied" grammar for a while. Of course I come across new vocabulary all the time. And idioms, tons of idioms I don't know. Well, that's what a dictionary is for. I am resuming the study of kanji, though. Reading manga with furigana and vn's with AGTH has been loads of fun, but I want to know all the (non-exceptional) readings of the 1st 1000 kanji. Right now, I'm still iffy on them. Especially the ON readings... Once I get confident with kanji, I'll start reading seinen manga and console VNs.

I dunno, the -tari part of the cheat sheet had the same rule my book has: start with the plain/familiar past tense verb, tack a "ri" onto the end of it. I think that works for all verbs. So basically it's right, isn't it? I must say, though, I've never ever run across "ja nakattari" or "shiranakattari" or any kind of negative conjugation like that in any manga or VN. I'm pretty sure I would've noticed it if I had. So I'm not sure that part is really valid.

[Tief Blau]

I dunno, the -tari part of the cheat sheet had the same rule my book has: start with the plain/familiar past tense verb, tack a "ri" onto the end of it. I think that works for all verbs. So basically it's right, isn't it? I must say, though, I've never ever run across "ja nakattari" or "shiranakattari" or any kind of negative conjugation like that in any manga or VN. I'm pretty sure I would've noticed it if I had. So I'm not sure that part is really valid.

Thank you, I now have to go yell at a certain someone for explaining it incorrectly. As for the ja nakattari and shiranakattari, I've never encountered it either, but it clearly states in my book that it's real. I'll start to pay more attention, and if I do encounter it, I will share it with the rest of you guys.

[zhurai]

I should say when I was learning japanese at school

the main thing that made my head hurt

was the conjugations

like...FFFFUUUUU

not that I remember much, I only remember the endings and what they mean (basically only retain the grammar knowledge+vocab instead of the grammar rules for those) T_T

[zoom909]

I don't have total recall of the conjugations either. For reading, you just have to be able to recognize them and remember what they mean, as you say...

Speaking of recognition, I've had more than one Japanese person tell me that they're bad at kanji. Meaning, they can't remember a lot of kanji well enough to get them right in writing. If they can just recognize them, then they figure it's okay. Somehow, that makes me feel better :-)

[torbin12]

I think this would be the right place to post this. Anyways, I don't know how long Fuwanovel has been around exactly, or if this type of thing has been done before (super challenge), but I love this idea, and it's getting me really fired up to learn (so that I can beat everyone else taking part in the Challenge ) I think it would be cool if maybe every year, at the start of the year (sometime between January and February) we start a new 'Super Challenge', no prizes or anything, its just that, a Challenge, to learn something new, figure something out, maybe Japan, Anime, or Visual Novel related, that we might not have tried or learned if not for the petty sake of beating others in a contest (just kidding, just kidding ) Maybe even do something that would be like 'Mini-Challenges', smaller and easier than things we pick out for the Super Challenges, that could be done in anywhere from a couple days to a couple weeks (Maybe something like...cooking something....or....whatever). Of course if we do that, then a new subforum might be necessary to keep the clutter down a little or something.

I don't know, maybe they are just crazy, weird ideas, but I think it's best to put your idea out there to let it get shot down at least, than to let others think you don't have any ideas at all. (Or in other words 'I would rather be known to be a fool, than just thought to be one')

[Mephisto]

I noticed that the sign up date already passed by a little more than a week ago. Is it still possible to take part in this and try to play catch up?

[Vax]

I noticed that the sign up date already passed by a little more than a week ago. Is it still possible to take part in this and try to play catch up?

You can start anytime! The more the merrier. There's no set start date, me and torbin12 have only just started this week.

The idea is that by doing it as part of a community you feel more motivated to continue. It's not meant to be a race or anything, everyone will set their own pace.

[Mephisto]

Alright awesome. I intend to be starting today, although I doubt I'll be able to get a copy of the book so quickly.

I have pretty much no background in learning Japanese itself, but I come from a Chinese family that is currently living in America.

I had some basic schooling in Chinese when I was young, but I gradually stopped learning it due to laziness. I do recall some characters and stuff, and I can still speak it with relative fluency (enough to hold a conversation).

I'm not sure if any of that will be helpful in learning Japanese, but if anyone else comes from a similar background and has tips to offer, I would be happy to receive them.

Edit: I'm looking at a PDF of a 4th edition of his book. I notice that the book teaches the kanji solely by the way the kanji looks, and not how its read. I actually recognize all of the early kanji in the book since its exactly the same in chinese, and I find myself calling them by their chinese pronunciations. Will this cause problems in the future in learning their Japanese sounds?

[Daeyamati]

Alright awesome. I intend to be starting today, although I doubt I'll be able to get a copy of the book so quickly.

I have pretty much no background in learning Japanese itself, but I come from a Chinese family that is currently living in America.

I had some basic schooling in Chinese when I was young, but I gradually stopped learning it due to laziness. I do recall some characters and stuff, and I can still speak it with relative fluency (enough to hold a conversation).

I'm not sure if any of that will be helpful in learning Japanese, but if anyone else comes from a similar background and has tips to offer, I would be happy to receive them.

Personally I think having some knowledge with Chinese will make it easier for you to remember/recognize kanji. Iirc Aaeru has a similar background to you, so you should ask her if you have any questions.

[Tief Blau]

Alright awesome. I intend to be starting today, although I doubt I'll be able to get a copy of the book so quickly.

I have pretty much no background in learning Japanese itself, but I come from a Chinese family that is currently living in America.

I had some basic schooling in Chinese when I was young, but I gradually stopped learning it due to laziness. I do recall some characters and stuff, and I can still speak it with relative fluency (enough to hold a conversation).

I'm not sure if any of that will be helpful in learning Japanese, but if anyone else comes from a similar background and has tips to offer, I would be happy to receive them.

I also have a similar background. I was learning Chinese until a few years ago, and I find it helpful, but more for determining the meaning of the words, it is also helpful for some reading/speaking. forgive my horrible pinyin, but I will try to explain

Japanese Kanji:　以外

Japanese Kana:　いがい

Romaji:　　　　　Igai

Chinese:　　　　Iwai

Meaning:　　　Aside from

Japanese Kanji:　以前

Japanese Kana:　いぜん

Romaji:　　　　　Izen

Chinese:　　　　Ichian

Meaning:　　　　Past

Since all Japanese compounds are pronounced with badly butchered in Chinese, it will actually be somewhat helpful.

[zhurai]

Personally I think having some knowledge with Chinese will make it easier for you to remember/recognize kanji. Iirc Aaeru has a similar background to you, so you should ask her if you have any questions.

yes having a background in Chinese is useful for kanji

also I'm Chinese but I quit chinese school at 3rd grade so I can't read Chinese...

fffffffffffffffffffffff

[Mephisto]

Thanks for the comments.

I've no doubt that Chinese will be invaluable in learning the language itself, but I was wondering if I should try a different method than the one in J. Heisigs book, since his does not teach the pronunciations with the way it's written.

To put forth some examples of what I mean,

一 - yi

二 - er

三 - san

四 - si

五 - wu

六 - liu

七 - qi

八 - ba

九 - jiu

十 - shi

月 - yue

日 - ri

口 - kou

田 - tian

目 - mu

Those are the chinese pronunciations of the first fifteen words in his book, but I'm sure the Japanese ones are completely different. I was worried it'd make it harder for me to learn pronunciations later on if I learned it the way Heisig presents it, which is all the writing first, and then learn the reading later. (This is ignoring the fact that the meanings of the words are slightly different and I may confuse myself if there isn't a clear way to differentiate between the Chinese and Japanese styles)

[zhurai]

一 - yi

二 - er

三 - san

四 - si

五 - wu

六 - liu

七 - qi

八 - ba

九 - jiu

十 - shi

月 - yue

日 - ri

ichi

ni

san

shi

go

roku

shichi

hachi

kyuu

jyuu

@ 月 : at least in the context of month (since it's also moon, which is different reading): gatsu

@ 日 : at least in terms of days, it's -ka ending, but there's specific rules on their pronunciation