Why is it morally wrong to bring back the dead?

[crunchytaco]

You've probably watched at least one Anime throughout your life where a character comes upon an ability, wish or a device that allows them to bring back a loved one from the dead. At the very end, they are either persuaded by others, or convince that themselves that it would be against the fabric of nature, or morality whatever to bring people back from the dead. 

 

Examples include:

 

1. Full Metal Alchemist - teases you with the possibility of raising the dead through transmutation, but some freakish accident always occurs where the body is incomplete, or the soul isn't binded. 

 

2. Gurren Lagann - they had the ability to bring back Kamina and Nia using spiral power, but Simon didn't agree with the idea, claiming, "The dead should stay dead." Even though the two had their lives robbed prematurely from them at young ages, and could have lived a full life with the rest of their loved ones.

 

Can you name more Animes where they do this, give reasons and explain why you think it's wrong or not?

 

What do you think the implications this has on real life?

[Eclipsed]

 

Can you name more Animes where they do this, give reasons and explain why you think it's wrong or not?

 

What do you think the implications this has on real life?

[Mr Poltroon]

Morally? You don't have their consent, for starters.

Secondly, it goes against everything we believe about nature, so they obviously can't go around promoting the raising of the dead.

I'm also betting it would also cause a lot of social consequences, but I'm not smart enough to venture over there.

 

I'm all for revival though. If they tell you they didn't want to be revived, just murder them again.

[crunchytaco]

 

1. Naruto

2. It's wrong because the evil people are using dead people to fight good people

3. Disrupts the balance of nature, circle of life or whatever

 

Hmm.. and on an intrinsic level, what do you think? 

 

 

Morally? You don't have their consent, for starters.

Secondly, it goes against everything we believe about nature, so they obviously can't go around promoting the raising of the death.

I'm also betting it would also cause a lot of social consequences, but I'm not smart enough to venture over there.

 

I'm all for revival though. If they tell you they didn't want to be revived, just murder them again.

 

Likewise. I'd like to be brought back every 100 year-1000 years  to see the progress (or regression) of this world I lived in.

[AtherAngelus]

First of all it is wrong because most religions have an after life and so on, bringing back the dead is therefor some sort of sin since you would be stealing a soul back from paradise/hell/Valhalla/name it/... Also most religions emphasize that mortals should not judge nor play god. This is why it is mostly considered "morally" wrong

 

Secondly it is within the logic of meta-physics impossible, unless you are trying to give life to an empty husk.

This is because there is so far only proof that everything is  energy and that energy always has to flow or be contained in a temporary state, therefor it is unlikely that the conscience of someone would flow to a certain place to retain its temporary state and then be able to pulled back in perfect condition.

 

Thirdly ... fear of the unknown...

[crunchytaco]

First of all it is wrong because most religions have an after life and so on, bringing back the dead is therefor some sort of sin since you would be stealing a soul back from paradise/hell/Valhalla/name it/... Also most religions emphasize that mortals should not judge nor play god. This is why it is mostly considered "morally" wrong

 

Secondly it is within the logic of meta-physics impossible, unless you are trying to give life to an empty husk.

This is because there is so far only proof that everything is  energy and that energy always has to flow or be contained in a temporary state, therefor it is unlikely that the conscience of someone would flow to a certain place to retain its temporary state and then be able to pulled back in perfect condition.

 

Thirdly ... fear of the unknown...

 

Let's play with your second point a bit. One teleportation theory suggests copying atoms in the form of data and re-assembling it at another location, similar to how you copy data on a hard drive and transferring it somewhere else. If we copy someone's data right before they die, we can restart them where they left off.

[Flutterz]

Surprisingly, I don't think I've watched a single anime where someone has the ability to bring someone back to life (except through time travel, but that's a whole 'nother story). I guess I don't watch crappy shounens. Oh, now that I've mentioned shounen, I suppose there's DBZ which I watched a long time ago. If memory serves nobody ever stays dead there and nobody really minds, so it's not portrayed as morally wrong.

 

If I had to guess, technically speaking it's impossible to bring someone back to life exactly the way they were before they died because the brain deteriorates very quickly, so if you bring back someone with anything other than time travel you'll basically be recreating them from your memory, and then rather than the person being who they were they'll be limited to what you remember about them. There's also the possibility whatever magic you used will cause them to be bound to you as a servant which is even worse.

[crunchytaco]

Surprisingly, I don't think I've watched a single anime where someone has the ability to bring someone back to life (except through time travel, but that's a whole 'nother story). I guess I don't watch crappy shounens. Oh, now that I've mentioned shounen, I suppose there's DBZ which I watched a long time ago. If memory serves nobody ever stays dead there and nobody really minds, so it's not portrayed as morally wrong.

 

If I had to guess, technically speaking it's impossible to bring someone back to life exactly the way they were before they died because the brain deteriorates very quickly, so if you bring back someone with anything other than time travel you'll basically be recreating them from your memory, and then rather than the person being who they were they'll be limited to what you remember about them. There's also the possibility whatever magic you used will cause them to be bound to you as a servant which is even worse.

 

You're right, it is a recurring incident that happens in mostly shounens, but I wouldn't call them all crappy >_<  (DBZ was supposed to be light hearted, except for the Android saga.) There's also anime related cultures like Final Fantasy 7's Aerith (where rumors of bringing her have become legendary), and non anime related stories of powerful Djinns who won't grant wishes to bring back the dead

[AtherAngelus]

Let's play with your second point a bit. One teleportation theory suggests copying atoms in the form of data and re-assembling it at another location, similar to how you copy data on a hard drive and transferring it somewhere else. If we copy someone's data right before they die, we can restart them where they left off.

 

Atoms are made out of energy we are quite certain, so yes it would be possible to blueprint a human body and copy/recreate it.

Yet when we "theorize" that consciousness is made out of energy then we would first have to define what kind of energy and in witch way it is unique or reproduceable

Otherwise the recreated human clone might just straight away collapse and live as a plant/ or randomly spasm,or even start decomposing the minute it is created.

 

The thing is we HAVE to conclude that consciousness is unique otherwise we could clone two humans with the same consciousness and therefor creating some sort of paradox, how would you in that case experience things trough 2 bodies? 

 

So we can "assume" that the conscience/soul of a person is unique and if we "assume" that it remains in that state "somewhere" " forever" then yes bringing back a person is possible. So before you want to put a theory around it, you need a religion or theory that solves the mystery of consciousnesses.

 

AND since most religions forbid it and science has no answers, it is for the time being impossible and a subject of imagination/taboo

[Kendjin]

mahouka koukou no rettousei had a sort of revival thing. In that case it seemed ok.

I for one am willing to for go religion if it meant being resurrected. As long as I came back sentient and not a husk. Though if I did I doubt I'd care.

[Eclipsed]

 

Hmm.. and on an intrinsic level, what do you think? 

 

Heh heh, apologies for my earlier half-hearted answer.

 

Debating morality over reviving the dead is pointless for us at the moment because it's simply not possible.

It's basically also the only valid reason why characters are considered wrong for doing so, but the writers want to sound more fancy and be thematic so that's where the moral "Goes against the fabric of nature; you can't play God; etc" comes from. Though, in the fictional world, "goes against the fabric of nature" is a BS rule because that only applies to our world, not their fictional world (since obviously, they *can* revive the dead). But whatever "moral" writers end up using, it's basically a fancy way of saying "That's just how life works".

Hypothetically, in a world where we could revive the dead, although it's a very, very appealing concept, I'd probably be against it since there are so many ways it could be problematic. Edit: See Nosebleed's overpopulation statistics below. Not to mention all the religions out there that would be outraged by this and probably cause global-scale conflict.

[Rose]

Well, Medaka Box had lots of "revivals", but none was a true resurrection, aside from one maybe.

 

Well, it's weird to talk about this situation since it'll probably remain as an "if" forever, but in case we one day achieve the power to raise the dead, I don't think I'd be in favor of it. Dying is a part of our life-cycle, could you really call someone who was revived a human being? If we one day develop a natural ability to do so, then it would be fine but otherwise it's just mankind playing with something that should be left alone. Take aside any possible accident, any possible disease or anything else, there's not a single human being that won't eventually end up dead. In my perception, it's not about being not moral, but revival is not a thing for humans. On a side note, I'm considering reviving someone who has been dead for a while, not someone who is in a reversible dead state, in that case it's acceptable to try.

 

If you want to take in consideration the person revived, not everyone wants to come back. It's about beliefs, death is the end and some people won't desire to come back even if given a chance. If you're religious, you might consider the soul factor but I won't get into this.

 

 

 

[Nosebleed]

Morals are usually built upon natural laws, the rising of the dead isn't any different, although I do realise that people nowadays use the world moral for social laws more often than not but let's think of morals as something derived from natural laws just for the sake of simplicity.

 

If no one dies (or if you revive everyone, however you want to put it), the delicate cycle of nature is going to be completely destroyed, your corpse is important to nature, the fact that you die is important to nature to continue its cycle. If Man was always alive, we'd destroy this planet.

 

While you could go on about human values, social values, etc etc, the basic premise is that it would simply ensue chaos.

 

The thing with these anime is that they add emotional value to it, they make you feel connected to the characters and then you feel bad for the character not being able to be reborn more often than not, just liek you would in real life if you had someone dear to you pass away. Most human beings tend to think of themselves as more special than others, and this is a perfectly reasonable characteristic we have so don't feel bad about it, and that's why we have thoughts like "it wouldn't hurt to just revive one person", well sure, it wouldn't, but if everyone feels the same way you do, and if everyone had the power to do so, then chaos would ensue. And that is why rising people from the dead is fundamentally wrong.

[Okami]

I imagine that it's because of religious people and their beliefs. Many things are forbidden or considered wrong based on religions and their belief that humans shouldn't step on goods territory. I personally find it very stupid.

 

 

 

Morals are usually built upon natural laws, the rising of the dead isn't any different, although I do realise that people nowadays use the world moral for social laws more often than not but let's think of morals as something derived from natural laws just for the sake of simplicity.

 

If no one dies (or if you revive everyone, however you want to put it), the delicate cycle of nature is going to be completely destroyed, your corpse is important to nature, the fact that you die is important to nature to continue its cycle. If Man was always alive, we'd destroy this planet.

 

While you could go on about human values, social values, etc etc, the basic premise is that it would simply ensue chaos.

 

The thing with these anime is that they add emotional value to it, they make you feel connected to the characters and then you feel bad for the character not being able to be reborn more often than not, just liek you would in real life if you had someone dear to you pass away. Most human beings tend to think of themselves as more special than others, and this is a perfectly reasonable characteristic we have so don't feel bad about it, and that's why we have thoughts like "it wouldn't hurt to just revive one person", well sure, it wouldn't, but if everyone feels the same way you do, and if everyone had the power to do so, then chaos would ensue. And that is why rising people from the dead is fundamentally wrong.

[Kaguya]

I imagine that it's because of religious people and their beliefs. Many things are forbidden or considered wrong based on religions and their belief that humans shouldn't step on goods territory. I personally find it very stupid.

 

 

 

 

I completely disagree, humans are just 1 spices on this planet so just 1 spices corpses don't have such a big rule in a big picture, and changing natural lows in order for them to better suit humans is a rule of science and technology to begin with.

 

I don't want to look like a grammar nazi, but you probably meant species. Species are "a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding". Spices, though, are this: 

 

Now, to your actual argument: yes, overpopulation, even for one species, can be a huge problem. Specially for human beings, who produce much more trash than other animals. You can find detailed info on that with a google search, so I won't bother posting.

 

Just as an off comment, morals are ultimately silly.

[Okami]

Now, to your actual argument: yes, overpopulation, even for one species, can be a huge problem. Specially for human beings, who produce much more trash than other animals. You can find detailed info on that with a google search, so I won't bother posting.

 

Just as an off comment, morals are ultimately silly.

 

Nosebleed didn't talk about overpopulation but about roles of human corpses in cycle of nature, and in that meter it wouldn't be a big deal at all.

 

As for overpopulation there would be other ways to deal with it as birth control, if everyone ware to be raised from the dead everyone would practically be immortal so all we would need to do to stop overpopulation is to stop making new humans at least until we find other ways to deal with overpopulation.

 

But yea I agree that morals are ultimately silly to begin with.

 

See, that's kinda what I meant by flying too close to the sun.  Even if people do or do not believe in God, in order to do something like that you have to believe that you're strong or great enough to bypass natural laws.  Regardless of their religious beliefs, there are many things that humans cannot do, and bringing people back from the dead is one of them.  Challenging natural laws doesn't usually have a happy ending.

 

The whole idea of religion (at least most religions, anyway) is that humans are special.  Regardless, we can't actually change natural laws.  Gravity is still in effect, otherwise we'd have mastered the art of producing zero-G, regardless of where.  We haven't been able to extend the lifespan of human beings farther than is naturally possible through good habits and lifestyle choices.  Some things previously considered to be impossible are now possible, like a global communication network and making simple AIs, but there are things that are still impossible to do, at least right now.

 

I completely disagree, Like I said I believe that challenging natural laws and bypassing them is a rule of science and technology and the reason why we get this far to begin with. If we can't go against some natural  laws yet it only means that science has a lot more forward to go until we can.

[Eclipsed]

I'm confused as to what Okami is arguing about to Nosebleed.

I'm pretty sure when Nosebleed said "If Man was always alive, we'd destroy this planet; our corpse is important to nature," that it applies to all beings/animals in existence as well; ie. circle of life. So Okami's point about "humans being 1 corpse species is not important to the big picture" is irrelevant.

Edit: Even then, if we were to just consider humans only, the issue of human overpopulation is indeed a big point to consider too. And check out them statistics Nosebleed whipped out  .

 

But it seems at least we all agree morals are meh.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Eclipsed

[Stray Cat]

Okami, if you know the key to stopping overpopulation I would love to hear it, since it's one of the biggest issues the world is dealing with right now.  What you're proposing is something similar to a Neo-Malthusian (simply morals and birth control are enough to stop overpopulation).  Even if humans were immortal, I doubt most would bother to control or care about this (most people don't care about it now and we're doing a perfectly good job of overpopulating the planet while being mortal, despite the constant warning of future problems). 

 

So overall:

 

[Nosebleed]

I'm sorry to say this but yes our corpses are important in nature's cycle, they feed bacteria that feed animals that feed us, I'm sorry for not mentioning overpopulation,I thought it was implied by "the world would turn into chaos" as in we would not be able to manage ourselves nor other species, I also didn't know that 7 billion people was a small number, my bad, we'd probably end up eating everything up and running our mineral and biological resources out in some years, I highly doubt you could enforce birth control either, we're already facing overpopulation and nobody seems to be able to stop it, but I'm glad you're so positive about it.

 

Did you know that if we destroyed every fly in the world, our planet would be in some serious issues that could lead to extinction of species?

Do you not realize how important we humans are in nature's death cycle as well?

 

Let me give you some stats. There are, on average 154,889 deaths and 358,192 births a day worldwide, let's assume the number is stable (it's likely rising) and that there are no sudden plagues or atomic bombs. 

In a year this means  56,534,485 deaths and 130,740,080 births.

Since in this scenarios deaths will "turn into births" we'll have 187,274,565 new humans a year on average

In just 5 years, with these stats, you'd have almost 1 billion new human beings (936,372,825) making the total population a whopping 8 billion people. Five years, let that number sink in, please.

In this present year the gross populartion growth is right now at around 60 million people, and this is already an issue right now, but with the stats of this hypothetical scenario that number would triple.

And even assuming stricter birth control (don't know how you're going to achieve it but let's assume you try really really hard) you probably would at least still double the current growth rate which would mean one billion new humans in 10 years which is still a lot.

Unless we start colonizing other planets in 5 years, with these stats, we're doomed.

 

Do you realize where humanity would be headed with these kinds of numbers?

Do you really think you'd be able to solve it with birth control alone? Are humans really that controlable to you?

 

If you really want to live in a world where no one dies and everything around you is destroyed, both animal and plant life, then have fun, but please don't take me with you.

 

I'm sorry but this is just unrealistic no matter how you look at it.

[Okami]

Okami, if you know the key to stopping overpopulation I would love to hear it, since it's one of the biggest issues the world is dealing with right now.  What you're proposing is something similar to a Neo-Malthusian (simply morals and birth control are enough to stop overpopulation).  Even if humans were immortal, I doubt most would bother to control or care about this (most people don't care about it now and we're doing a perfectly good job of overpopulating the planet while being mortal, despite the constant warning of future problems). 

 

So overall:

 

 

First of all globally looking we don't have overpopulation problems yet, and cetern countries had already dealt with this problem, like China they had overpopulation problems and they dealt with it by using one of forms of birth control and currently they don't have a big problem any more they even started lowering their birth control measures.

 

 

 

Do you really think you'd be able to solve it with birth control alone? Are humans really that controlable to you?

 

Yes if you put enough harsh punishment for breaking a role and you take serous measures to catch everyone who's breaking them they would have to respect those rules.

[Eclipsed]

 

Debating morality over reviving the dead is pointless for us at the moment because it's simply not possible.

Quoting myself cuz I kinda knew a topic of this type would end up like this.

 

 

 

Yes if you put enough harsh punishment for breaking a role and you take serous measures to catch everyone who's breaking them they would have to respect those rules.

Tyrant!!! 

[Flutterz]

Yes if you put enough harsh punishment for breaking a role and you take serous measures to catch everyone who's breaking them they would have to respect those rules.

I suggest you read this wikipedia article, it'll explain what a coup d'état is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

[OriginalRen]

Well since my 1st post was hidden for some odd reason even though I don't feel it was derailment, I will change how I word it.

 

Again, I think what people don't realize is that immortality does not pertain to youth, and as such we would all look atrocious and be walking vegetables. So I ask why bringing back the dead would be a good thing for people considering the fact that everyone would be a rotted corpse.

[solidbatman]

Why not close this thread already? 

1) People cannot come back to life after being ded

 

2) It will never be possible

 

3) Arguing morality on the internet is like trying to swim with sharks while covered in blood. 

 

/thread

[Kaguya]

Quoting myself cuz I kinda knew a topic of this type would end up like this.

I disagree. Debating this type of thing is pretty fun, so the point is entertainment. Well, at least to me~

 

Now, Okami, most contraception methods to stop birth are flawed, so you'd be either forcing tons of people into abortion or go killing off people to make our population stable- either way, it's not something most people would agree to. Then again, this would only be a big problem if everyone in the world had a way to revive other people and that way was relatively cheap. Make it cost 1 million dollars for person and surely less people would be revived. 

 

Otherwise, people might as well go in a revival spree. You make your grandma go back to life, she does that to her mother, who does that to her mother and etc. Population would plannet in a way faster ratio than nii-chan suggests, I believe.