Magical girl anime discussion(or something I dunno)

[Mikimir]

I think some people are having the wrong idea about the magical girl sub-genre. I'm watching Fate/kaleid liner Prisma right now and I don't understand the rating it has on myanimelist. This is why I'm talking about the magical girl sub-genre. I do understand that people hate the fact that there's an anime twisting the Fate universe into a yuri magical girl abomination but really? 7.30? I can't help it but to think that people mistake the sub-genre magical girl for something else. Magical girls, to Japanese, are something like the princesses in Disney movies. Y'all loved Frozen right? Puella magi madoka magica is an anime like Frozen too; it gives a little twist to the traditional concept of princesses/magical girls. I hated Frozen because I didn't understand the extreme popularity I thought it didn't deserve(although the main reason why I hated it is because my friends screamed LET IT GO everytime in class. Pissed me off). The movie was popular back in Korea too, although I bet it was because Koreans have a tendency to envy Americans and like what Americans like. So yeah, adding a bit of tragedy element and death into Puella magi madoka magica and Fate/kaleid(although I don't think this one has death?)is a twist to the happy-happy magical girl universe. Just like Frozen; the prince is the bad guy and... I don't remember Frozen's storyline so let's just leave it that way. Don't get me wrong, Frozen was awesome. I just like Brave more.

TL;DR: Magical girl=princesses in Disney movies

[Down]

I'm not sure exactly what the point of your rant is, but anyway 7.3 for Prisma Illya seems a bit high to me, although I don't know MAL's rating habits (UBW was already in the top 10 anime before it aired apparently, which says a lot about how trustful they are). In the end Prisma Illya is a vast fan-fiction that takes Nanoha and puts Fate characters in it, it's already a wonder how it got an anime, even though it has some cool fights and can be entertaining.

 

 

Also I'm not sure I agree with your statement that magical girls are "princesses in Disney movies".

Magical girls are harbringers of hope, friendship and joy of life. The state of magical girl also is a metaphor for the transition from childhood to adulthood. Not sure how this ties up with Disney princesses.

I'm only talking about kids-aimed magical-girls here of course, since otaku-aimed magical-girls, especially post-Nanoha ones, are a different thing.

[Jibril]

Fate/kaleid liner Prisma has one of the best choreographed fights and animation I've seen in recent years. It would be a 8.00+ in MAL if it weren't the fact that the fights are only in 1-2 episodes and the rest are just lolis doing loli stuff.... 

Also Madoka Magica is a deconstruction of the magical girl genre, you can't compare it to most magical girl anime IMO.

[Down]

 

Also Madoka Magica is a deconstruction of the magical girl genre, you can't compare it to most magical girl anime IMO.

On the contrary, if you want to call it a deconstruction of the genre you have to compare it with other magical girl anime.

 

Especially because, contrary to what that formulation may imply, Madoka really isn't some sort of aberration in the genre, it rather follows logically the trend of fighting magical-girls for otaku (by opposition to magical-girl primarily aimed at little girls) started by Nanoha. It has most of the characteristics of a magical-girl anime.

The main point where it makes a difference is in the nature of the magic powers. In classical magical-girl anime, the magic powers are a gift, something to use with playfulness to help people and help yourself, grow up. Nanoha made of those powers a responsibility rather than a gift. Actually, even Fancy Lala (which is by the way the best classical magical-girl anime out there) did that before.

Then comes Madoka, and its Faustian contract which now makes of the magic powers a burden. It's an interesting point in itself, and it's probably the reason why people call Madoka a 'deconstruction' of the genre (which really sounds too important for what it is). Although it's worth noting that this concept of putting a twist, a devilish contract, has been explored in various different genres (for example Bokurano for giant robots, certainly a big inspiration for Madoka - there's a visual reference to it in the series)

All of this to say, that aspect of Madoka really is a logical evolution of the genre.

 

Another way to tie Madoka to the magical-girl genre is its end. Madoka is a fighting magical-girl anime, yet

at the end of the series, Madoka solves the conflict in a peaceful manner. That's arguably a way to come back to the essence of the magical-girl anime, healing rather than fighting.

Although it's probably coincidental, since it's well-known that Urobuchi doesn't know/care much about magical-girl anyway.

But even then, Madoka isn't really a series that has any kind of "commentary" to make on magical-girl anime. Its significance in the grand scheme of the sub-genre of magical-girl anime is not exactly huge.

[harry_kinomoto]

I think the statement Madoka being a "deconstruction" is more due to how it plays upon the construct of the magical girl genre as opposed to some epistemological take on magic per se. As we know, before Madoka, magical girl shows were uniformly happy, cheery, and even though they did include an element of conflict, the most challenging way this was presented was by showing a straight, obvious, black-or-white good guy VS the bad guy. The bad guy would be vanquished, good would have triumphed, everyone would celebrate, and all would be well. But what if the bad guy was actually abused as a kid, had a legitimate reason for waging war against the world, and being defeated and killed is really just the strong vanquishing the weak by another name? OK I'm running off my mouth a bit here cos I'm tired and it's late, but my point does stand: heavy-handed themes like these are not normally discussed in magical girl anime: it is simply NOT the norm, mainly because it is difficult to make a kid's show that presents themes like these in a way that kids will actually understand. 

 

This is of course not to say that these ideas are ORIGINAL. And it's certainly not to say that no one has TRIED. But it's interesting because when magical girl series try to add that extra "depth" to it everyone ends up thinking it's the best one since sliced bread. And that, I guess, was Madoka's "hook". And they didn't half-ass their portrayals of death, tragedy and destruction. The thing with Mami in episode 3 for example, again, nothing PARTICULARLY original about that kinda thing happening, but simply the fact that it happened in a show that for the previous 2 episodes you'd watch alongside Card Captor Sakura and struggle to tell the difference. It was the packaging that made the difference as opposed to the idea itself I think. In much the same way that while you may not be surprised at, say, finding a gun in a weapons box; but if you found a fully-loaded AK-47 in a young girl's toy chest you'd probably be a little taken aback!

 

On a final note, I think that makes an interesting point on the direction of creativity. I recall people laugh out the guy who said: "everything that can be invented has already been invented". But I sorta see where (s)he's coming from, because it's actually extraordinarily difficult to create an ENTIRELY novel idea that no one else has EVER thought about ever. Applying knowledge in fields that others had not previously thought to apply them, however, can sometimes lead to remarkable results~

[Down]

 

I think the statement Madoka being a "deconstruction" is more due to how it plays upon the construct of the magical girl genre as opposed to some epistemological take on magic per se. As we know, before Madoka, magical girl shows were uniformly happy, cheery, and even though they did include an element of conflict, the most challenging way this was presented was by showing a straight, obvious, black-or-white good guy VS the bad guy. The bad guy would be vanquished, good would have triumphed, everyone would celebrate, and all would be well. But what if the bad guy was actually abused as a kid, had a legitimate reason for waging war against the world, and being defeated and killed is really just the strong vanquishing the weak by another name? OK I'm running off my mouth a bit here cos I'm tired and it's late, but my point does stand: heavy-handed themes like these are not normally discussed in magical girl anime: it is simply NOT the norm, mainly because it is difficult to make a kid's show that presents themes like these in a way that kids will actually understand.

Ahhh, but sadly that's a misconception. But it's good because it will allow me to answer in a more constructed manner than my blurb above.

 

First, let us make a distinction: magical-girl anime vs fighting magical-girl anime. At its roots, the magical-girl genre that originates from Mahoutsukai Sally and its various copycats in the 60s, continues with the second generation of 80s magical-girls like Minky Momo and keeps seeing evolution later through modern shows such as Ojamajo Doremi  or Full Moon wo Sagashite, does not feature any kind of manicheist opposition of good and evil nor any fights at all. This notion is introduced very late in the sub-genre that sprouted in the 90s with Sailor Moon and became dominant in the last decade with the turning point of 2004 where both the Precure license (as far as little girls are concerned) and the Nanoha license (as far as otakus are concerned) took off.

The description you make of a "typical magical-girl show" corresponds very much to Precure, but only applies (and not so exactly) to that fighting magical-girl sub-genre, which is far from being as ancient and typical of japanese animation as the magical-girl genre as a whole.

 

Now before going onto 'heavy-handed' themes, I want to address the question of originality/creativity that you pointed out after. I do agree that very few things are 'truly original', but more than anything 'true originality' is not only rare, it's devoid of any interesting aspect. If you discuss with someone with a deep knowledge of a certain genre and its origins, you might be able to find works that approach 'true originality'... only to realize it doesn't bring anything interesting to the question.

When we talk about 'originality', it's more on a relative term. Fights in magical-girls didn't come out of nowhere, the codes of the genre were directly imported into Sailor Moon from the tokusatsu/sentai series that aired since the 70s. It's not original per se, but relatively to the magical-girl genre, it was a mini-revolution that had a deep impact on the genre.

To get back to Madoka, the point I want to make is that it seems original relatively to the perception that a lot of anime watchers have of magical-girls (which can basically be summed up by having seen some of either Card Captor Sakura, Doremi or Sailor Moon, depending on their generation, when they were kids), but it really isn't relatively to what the genre actually is.

 

Why is that? Well first, regarding heavy-handed themes. Magical-girl anime have always touched upon heavy themes.

Doremi handles subjects like alcoolism, divorce, bullying, parental violence, grave illness and death on a semi-regular basis. It might not be treated in a dark, pessimistic way but it's there. Actually most magical-girl shows talk about death at some point or another. Sailor Moon has bad guys like good guys dying on screen. The synopsis of Full Moon wo Sagashite is basically a 12 year old girl dreaming to be a singer... that has throat cancer and will die in a year. Card Captor Sakura has a subtle subtext full of sexuality. Sailor Moon even has plain homosexuality on screen. And the list goes on and on and on...

Just because kids shows don't have blood and guts spattered all over the screen doesn't mean they don't tackle serious stuff (well that's becoming less and less true but that's the sad days we live in and another subject entirely).

 

Even going onto the the "dark twist" thing we can find examples prior to Madoka. In adult shows there's no doubt about that, magical-girl 90s OAVs that feature the usual pulp mix of violence and sex are a good example and Nanoha and its various copycats aren't exactly light either.

In a more blurry territory there are series such as Mahou Shoujo-tai Arusu or Princess Tutu that probably have been seen both by adult and children audiences and where it's hard to know towards who it was geared in the first place, but that most definitely feature that "dark twist". I have to say that Princess Tutu probably does it the best, because of how relevant it is to its meta-fictionnal commentary.

 

In the end, the difference in Madoka is one of treatment rather than depth. The one thing that is introduced by Madoka is mainly the brutality. It goes primarily for the shock factor with its violent deaths and tragic Faustian contracts that never go well. The whole series is treated as a cruel tragedy, but the core isn't all that different.

 

If you say that Madoka "deconstructs" the fighting magical-girl sub-genre because it doesn't portray a manicheist conflict where Good triumph in the end by vanquishing Evil, then it's probably somewhat true I guess. And even then there would be arguable points.

Madoka is an excellent series, but it wouldn't be accurate to say that there's such a huge gap between it and the rest of the magical-girl genre, because it's simply not true.

 

One last thing, to highlight how much context is key in this kind of reflexion: you say that Madoka presents a huge gap between its first two 'innocent' episodes and the rest (and that's definitely what Shinbo aimed for), but the sole knowledge that it's an anime broadcasted late at night, produced by Shaft, written by Urobuchi and directed by Shinbo immediately gave away the fact that it wouldn't be some pinky sugar series. Once again, when confronted to the reality of its genre and its context rather than observed in a vacuum, Madoka isn't such a groundbreaking or surprising series. (And once again, I like it a lot. It's not completely uninspired either. It packs a lot of emotions because of that tragic aspect that is one of the selling points of the series, and has an interesting artistic direction.)

 

I hope I managed to make my thoughts clear somehow.

 

Also, when did you come back to the forums? That's a resurrection! =p

[Chewy]

Ahhh, but sadly that's a misconception. But it's good because it will allow me to answer in a more constructed manner than my blurb above.

 

First, let us make a distinction: magical-girl anime vs fighting magical-girl anime. At its roots, the magical-girl genre that originates from Mahoutsukai Sally and its various copycats in the 60s, continues with the second generation of 80s magical-girls like Minky Momo and keeps seeing evolution later through modern shows such as Ojamajo Doremi  or Full Moon wo Sagashite, does not feature any kind of manicheist opposition of good and evil nor any fights at all. This notion is introduced very late in the sub-genre that sprouted in the 90s with Sailor Moon and became dominant in the last decade with the turning point of 2004 where both the Precure license (as far as little girls are concerned) and the Nanoha license (as far as otakus are concerned) took off.

The description you make of a "typical magical-girl show" corresponds very much to Precure, but only applies (and not so exactly) to that fighting magical-girl sub-genre, which is far from being as ancient and typical of japanese animation as the magical-girl genre as a whole.

 

Now before going onto 'heavy-handed' themes, I want to address the question of originality/creativity that you pointed out after. I do agree that very few things are 'truly original', but more than anything 'true originality' is not only rare, it's devoid of any interesting aspect. If you discuss with someone with a deep knowledge of a certain genre and its origins, you might be able to find works that approach 'true originality'... only to realize it doesn't bring anything interesting to the question.

When we talk about 'originality', it's more on a relative term. Fights in magical-girls didn't come out of nowhere, the codes of the genre were directly imported into Sailor Moon from the tokusatsu/sentai series that aired since the 70s. It's not original per se, but relatively to the magical-girl genre, it was a mini-revolution that had a deep impact on the genre.

To get back to Madoka, the point I want to make is that it seems original relatively to the perception that a lot of anime watchers have of magical-girls (which can basically be summed up by having seen some of either Card Captor Sakura, Doremi or Sailor Moon, depending on their generation, when they were kids), but it really isn't relatively to what the genre actually is.

 

Why is that? Well first, regarding heavy-handed themes. Magical-girl anime have always touched upon heavy themes.

Doremi handles subjects like alcoolism, divorce, bullying, parental violence, grave illness and death on a semi-regular basis. It might not be treated in a dark, pessimistic way but it's there. Actually most magical-girl shows talk about death at some point or another. Sailor Moon has bad guys like good guys dying on screen. The synopsis of Full Moon wo Sagashite is basically a 12 year old girl dreaming to be a singer... that has throat cancer and will die in a year. Card Captor Sakura has a subtle subtext full of sexuality. Sailor Moon even has plain homosexuality on screen. And the list goes on and on and on...

Just because kids shows don't have blood and guts spattered all over the screen doesn't mean they don't tackle serious stuff (well that's becoming less and less true but that's the sad days we live in and another subject entirely).

 

Even going onto the the "dark twist" thing we can find examples prior to Madoka. In adult shows there's no doubt about that, magical-girl 90s OAVs that feature the usual pulp mix of violence and sex are a good example and Nanoha and its various copycats aren't exactly light either.

In a more blurry territory there are series such as Mahou Shoujo-tai Arusu or Princess Tutu that probably have been seen both by adult and children audiences and where it's hard to know towards who it was geared in the first place, but that most definitely feature that "dark twist". I have to say that Princess Tutu probably does it the best, because of how relevant it is to its meta-fictionnal commentary.

 

In the end, the difference in Madoka is one of treatment rather than depth. The one thing that is introduced by Madoka is mainly the brutality. It goes primarily for the shock factor with its violent deaths and tragic Faustian contracts that never go well. The whole series is treated as a cruel tragedy, but the core isn't all that different.

 

If you say that Madoka "deconstructs" the fighting magical-girl sub-genre because it doesn't portray a manicheist conflict where Good triumph in the end by vanquishing Evil, then it's probably somewhat true I guess. And even then there would be arguable points.

Madoka is an excellent series, but it wouldn't be accurate to say that there's such a huge gap between it and the rest of the magical-girl genre, because it's simply not true.

 

One last thing, to highlight how much context is key in this kind of reflexion: you say that Madoka presents a huge gap between its first two 'innocent' episodes and the rest (and that's definitely what Shinbo aimed for), but the sole knowledge that it's an anime broadcasted late at night, produced by Shaft, written by Urobuchi and directed by Shinbo immediately gave away the fact that it wouldn't be some pinky sugar series. Once again, when confronted to the reality of its genre and its context rather than observed in a vacuum, Madoka isn't such a groundbreaking or surprising series. (And once again, I like it a lot. It's not completely uninspired either. It packs a lot of emotions because of that tragic aspect that is one of the selling points of the series, and has an interesting artistic direction.)

 

I hope I managed to make my thoughts clear somehow.

 

Also, when did you come back to the forums? That's a resurrection! =p

Did you write the whole thing..... Also actually reading the whole thing, I see what you are going at there. But I think it might be wise not to spam out small brains with information like this. I looked at it and started feeling a migraine.