Nasu-verse Discussion(spoilers to everything Nasu-verse related)

[Kosakyun]

Huh... I don't really consider the gameplay to be that similar to P3/P4.

But yeah, I guess.

The game was made to please the fans anyway.

I'm quite pleased with it.

Tamamo's the best Servant to happen in the game.

Yeap.

It'll be hard when I play CCC though. I don't know if I like Elizabeth more than Tamamo.

[Kaguya]

I'll say that Nero is a much better servant than fate's Saber. Tamamo is in fact the best servant in that game, though. 

If saber fixed her pride and the #lolmorality issues, she'd be ok. 

 

Bathory could have been a nice character. She's basically Luvia in disguise, though. 

[madvanced]

I missed the Clephas/Kosaki speculation discussion ;_;.

 

To touch on that subject, no matter what grail was fused with Sakura's body she became connected to the Fifth one stealing the rights to Illya to become it, basically for better or for worse the vessel for the Fifth Grail in HF the vessel is Sakura and not Illya, Illya didn't have a single soul in her body so she never functioned as the vessel in HF.

 

So naturally Rider was anchored to Sakura even when the Great Holy Grail was used and the way to reach it was destroyed. Because sakura was the Fifith Holy Grail, and still continued to function as it even when the it's complete existence was destroyed.

 

Kosaki also said that Sakura's magic attribute was compatible with the Makiri's that is actually quite the opposite. Sakura's abuse through the dickworms weren't only to taint her body enough for her to be able to be the vessel for the Grail, but also to change her body so that she can use(or try to) Makiri's magics, since the attribute that Sakura possesses is in no way suited for that.

 

Also Gilgamesh didn't survive because he was anchored to the Great Holy Grail after being tainted but rather, he was given a body when he was tainted. That was the power of the Grail, because when the Grail is closed there can be no connection. The only reason that he needed souls from others to maintain all his properties was because the Grail that he was tainted with was incomplete meaning that he still couldn't replenish Magical Energy like any other Magus could.

 

Also Sakura isn't a Sorcerer, she has the necessary magical power to become one was the still functioning vessel of the Grail, however she doesn't posses the knowledge to be one. Illya would be much closer to one performing an incomplete Heaven's Feel(3rd True Magic) to restore Shirou's soul.

 

The last point that I'm gonna touch on is about Shiki's Eyes. His eyes(Tohno's not Ryougi's) wouldn't be able to understand/comprehend/perceive the death of a spirit, something way above any kind of living or non-living beings. Heroic Spirits are on the level of artificial Gods so I don't thing that Tohno Shiki would be able to comprehend their state of death when he has trouble comprehending the death of non-living beings.

 

Also the True ancestors weren't created by the Earth, they were created by the Crimson moon with the acceptance of Gaia(Earth's collective will), and were then anchored to the Earth. Also on Ciel's route Shiki is only about to cut the connection to the Earth, however that is not a permanent sate(speculation time) because it was done in his school so it would be a very hostile place(no connection to Earth = no anchor for their existence) to any living being yet they can still use that school normally.

 

To answer to Kaguya about not being necessary to say that something is conjecture on this type of discussion. I only said it because I was basically refuting one of the main premises of your theory time after time, so I didn't want to sound like I was disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing or that I was just trying to provoke an argument or something of the sort. I usually have these types of worries when I discuss something intensively.

[Kosakyun]

Fuk. Just, fuk.

 

If you say that no matter what Grail was fused to Sakura she'll still gain the rights to become the fifth grail, then are you implying that Sakura wasn't fused with a grail in the Fate and UBW routes? Seeing that Illya was still the receiver of the souls of the Servants, that would mean that Sakura had not claimed the rights to become the grail yet. But that shouldn't be the case. I based it on your wording, so forgive me if it is a misunderstanding on my part. It is rather intriguing that Sakura was not able to function as the vessel in the first two routes though. Unless she actually needs to awaken to the evil insider her heart with the help of Angra Mainyu before she could actually gain the rights...

 

I was thinking that through the forceful modifying Zouken did on Sakura, she might've been able to adapt her innate skill to the Makiri's magic. I don't see how "Imaginary Numbers" can't be compatible with the Makiri's magic, which is to capture and bound the soul, if I remember correctly. Of course, it was very incompatible in the start due to the basis of Sakura's magic being the Tohsaka lineage.

 

So Gilgamesh was given a body, huh?

Wasn't he already given one prior to the war? It was the body he used when he was summoned as a Servant, yes? If so, then did the Holy Grail give him a new body upon tainting? Or did the Holy Grail simply give him power to maintain that body for a period of time? That is the question.

 

Goddamnit the eyes talk. I really need to read Tsukihime again.

[Kaguya]

Goddamnit the eyes talk. I really need to read Tsukihime again.

Watch the KnK movies while you're at it. Ryougi's eyes are the real deal. 

[Kosakyun]

Watch the KnK movies while you're at it. Ryougi's eyes are the real deal. 

 

You got any link that has tolerable file size?

[madvanced]

Fuk. Just, fuk.

 

If you say that no matter what Grail was fused to Sakura she'll still gain the rights to become the fifth grail, then are you implying that Sakura wasn't fused with a grail in the Fate and UBW routes? Seeing that Illya was still the receiver of the souls of the Servants, that would mean that Sakura had not claimed the rights to become the grail yet. But that shouldn't be the case. I based it on your wording, so forgive me if it is a misunderstanding on my part. It is rather intriguing that Sakura was not able to function as the vessel in the first two routes though. Unless she actually needs to awaken to the evil insider her heart with the help of Angra Mainyu before she could actually gain the rights...

 

I was thinking that through the forceful modifying Zouken did on Sakura, she might've been able to adapt her innate skill to the Makiri's magic. I don't see how "Imaginary Numbers" can't be compatible with the Makiri's magic, which is to capture and bound the soul, if I remember correctly. Of course, it was very incompatible in the start due to the basis of Sakura's magic being the Tohsaka lineage.

 

So Gilgamesh was given a body, huh?

Wasn't he already given one prior to the war? It was the body he used when he was summoned as a Servant, yes? If so, then did the Holy Grail give him a new body upon tainting? Or did the Holy Grail simply give him power to maintain that body for a period of time? That is the question.

 

Goddamnit the eyes talk. I really need to read Tsukihime again.

A servants body is still a spirit's body, when he was tainted Gilgamesh was given a true body. Just like when he was alive. That's why he says to Saber at the end of Fate that she should be tainted so that she could attain a body just like he did.

 

Sakura did not function as a vessel for the first 2 routes, because storyline. For all the other routes are concerned Sakura's hell at the hands of Zouken and Shinji never happened and Shinji was Rider's true master. That's how nasuverse works.

 

Regarding Sakura's affinity:

 

 

While having greater potential than Kariya or Byakuya, she is more suited to the Tohsaka magecraft. She was born lacking an Elemental Affinity of the "five great elements", and instead had an Imaginary Element of Imaginary Numbers, or "Hollow", as her affinity and Sorcery Trait. This was changed to the water alignment with her acclimation to the Matou magecraft, so she cannot display her true talent. Her Crest Worms will feed on any excess prana she circulates before she can use a spell, leaving her unable to even cast any in most cases. Due to them devouring it on a constant basis, even Rin is unable to tell that her sister is an actively practicing magus.

 

So Sakura needed to have water element to completely accommodate to the Makiri's magecraft, impairing her ability. then the way Zouken treated her made her unable to be a magus. So blame Zouken that a talent in magic was lost(Sakura had as much talent as her sister Rin).

[Kosakyun]

A servants body is still a spirit's body, when he was tainted Gilgamesh was given a true body. Just like when he was alive. That's why he says to Saber at the end of Fate that she should be tainted so that she could attain a body just like he did.

 

I always assumed that it had something to do with him maintaining the existence of his body in the world. I guess him getting a new body is also good.

 

 

Sakura did not function as a vessel for the first 2 routes, because storyline. For all the other routes are concerned Sakura's hell at the hands of Zouken and Shinji never happened and Shinji was Rider's true master. That's how nasuverse works.

 

Huh. Always assumed that it was still Sakura since Sakura was always the Master of Rider in canon. Shinji was only made Master of Rider by giving him the book that holds the makeshift Command Seals that supposedly binds Rider to him. I forgot if it was because Shinji forced Sakura to do it or if Zouken did. I do think Sakura's torture always happened though...

Because if it didn't, what the fuck was Zouken's treatment for in Fate/Zero? Unless that follows the Heaven's Feel route.

Also, it is known that Shinji's abuse of Sakura started even before the Fifth Holy Grail War, right after their father died. Something like that.

But yeah. The other routes didn't really talk about that. I would still like to think that all the cruelty inflicted upon Sakura happened though, since those are what gave her her personality. It's just not right if we don't consider them events that happened.

Let's think of a good theory to link all the routes together in terms of Sakura's situation!

 

 

So Sakura needed to have water element to completely accommodate to the Makiri's magecraft, impairing her ability. then the way Zouken treated her made her unable to be a magus. So blame Zouken that a talent in magic was lost(Sakura had as much talent as her sister Rin).

 

Huh. Her magic was the cause of her summoning those shadows in Heaven's Feel though...

I guess she was helped by the overflowing magical energy from the Holy Grail to summon those shadows, since she can't really use any magic while she's not in Dark Sakura form for all I know.

Or maybe she can? I don't know.

If she could, then I guess it would give her a hard time doing so.

I think we'll get more info on that in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia.

 

Also, inevitably stalled Fate/Stay Night UBW on Day 11 since I went and played Fate/Extra and Fate/Unlimited Codes.

[Clephas]

Sakura really is the Master in Fate and UBW, but she grants control over Rider to Shinji through a ritual that transfers her Command Spells to a book (at least that is what I recall).  The reason why Shinji does the people-dissolving ritual is because he doesn't have significant mana (less than Shirou, even) so Rider really does need the mana drained from somewhere else.

[Kosakyun]

Sakura really is the Master in Fate and UBW, but she grants control over Rider to Shinji through a ritual that transfers her Command Spells to a book (at least that is what I recall).  The reason why Shinji does the people-dissolving ritual is because he doesn't have significant mana (less than Shirou, even) so Rider really does need the mana drained from somewhere else.

 

Yeah. That was what I was saying.

The thing I was thinking about is why Sakura didn't seize control of the Grail from Illya in Fate and UBW.

According to Manuel, it should have automatically been connected to Sakura when she was fused with the remnants of the Fourth Holy Grail.

 

See:

 

To touch on that subject, no matter what grail was fused with Sakura's body she became connected to the Fifth one stealing the rights to Illya to become it, basically for better or for worse the vessel for the Fifth Grail in HF the vessel is Sakura and not Illya, Illya didn't have a single soul in her body so she never functioned as the vessel in HF.

[Clephas]

1.  Because in Fate and UBW Sakura was avoiding involvement in the War (also, Rider dies in both cases before the old man has reason to intervene and make Sakura take over).

2.  She didn't eat Gilgamesh in those two (mmm.... Seeeervaaaant....)

[Kosakyun]

So I guess the fusion of the Fourth Holy Grail to Sakura doesn't necessarily mean that she'll seize control of the Holy Grail in the Fifth War.

Yeah. I guess Gilgamesh didn't really try to kill her in the two.

But I think him visiting Sakura in Fate and UBW verifies that she's still an incomplete grail even if she didn't function as one in those routes.

[madvanced]

I always assumed that it had something to do with him maintaining the existence of his body in the world. I guess him getting a new body is also good.

 

 

 

Huh. Always assumed that it was still Sakura since Sakura was always the Master of Rider in canon. Shinji was only made Master of Rider by giving him the book that holds the makeshift Command Seals that supposedly binds Rider to him. I forgot if it was because Shinji forced Sakura to do it or if Zouken did. I do think Sakura's torture always happened though...

Because if it didn't, what the fuck was Zouken's treatment for in Fate/Zero? Unless that follows the Heaven's Feel route.

Also, it is known that Shinji's abuse of Sakura started even before the Fifth Holy Grail War, right after their father died. Something like that.

But yeah. The other routes didn't really talk about that. I would still like to think that all the cruelty inflicted upon Sakura happened though, since those are what gave her her personality. It's just not right if we don't consider them events that happened.

Let's think of a good theory to link all the routes together in terms of Sakura's situation!

 

 

 

Huh. Her magic was the cause of her summoning those shadows in Heaven's Feel though...

I guess she was helped by the overflowing magical energy from the Holy Grail to summon those shadows, since she can't really use any magic while she's not in Dark Sakura form for all I know.

Or maybe she can? I don't know.

If she could, then I guess it would give her a hard time doing so.

I think we'll get more info on that in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia.

 

Also, inevitably stalled Fate/Stay Night UBW on Day 11 since I went and played Fate/Extra and Fate/Unlimited Codes.

On UBW I'm still on day 5. I have been doing other stuff.

 

Now regarding the Shadow summoning it wasn't really her magic per se, it was more like they can be called by the Holy Grail since they are but lumps of pure magical energy(assuming that you're speaking about the huge shadows at the end of HF). Zouken literally made Sakura unable to use any magic because he always wanted her to become the Holy Grail he couldn't care less for a successor.

 

Regarding Rider still being Sakura's servant in Fate and UBW even if that was so, there is a big loophole in F/SN then. Just because Sakura used the Command Spell that doesn't mean that her connection to Rider was cut, so even if the Crest Worms absorbed most of Sakura's magical energy, she should still be able to supply Rider with some.

 

Also you cannot bring Fate/Zero in F/SN regarding that point of Sakura since F/Z was done after and wasn't written by Nasu. So there will be inconsistencies. I mean I don't think that Zouken would allow Sakura to be away from the Matou house like he did on Fate and UBW. I mean in Fate Sakura was depressed by Shinji's death, in HF even if she killed him on the verge of insanity, I don't think that she would feel that bad for his death.

 

But Gilgamesh visiting Sakura can be something of a hint, but this just shoes the inconsistencies that happen in Nasu-verse.

[Kosakyun]

I didn't know Fate/Zero wasn't done by Nasu.

Oh well.

 

 

Now regarding the Shadow summoning it wasn't really her magic per se, it was more like they can be called by the Holy Grail since they are but lumps of pure magical energy(assuming that you're speaking about the huge shadows at the end of HF). Zouken literally made Sakura unable to use any magic because he always wanted her to become the Holy Grail he couldn't care less for a successor.

 

See:

 

 

The Shadow Giants (影の巨人, Kage no kyojin?) are familiars made out of her Hollow element. Under normal circumstances they are extremely small, but when her powers are augmented by Angra Mainyu and the Holy Grail, their size increases vastly and they start acting as a materialized curse. Each composed of roughly one thousand units of prana, they are called a match for the Noble Phantasms of Servants. She can bring them forth without limit, and the amount of energy spent creating them for just a single battle, over one hundred million, is enough to run a department of the Clock Tower for one hundred years.

and

 

 

Hollow (虚数, Kyosū?), or Imaginary Numbers is Sakura Matou’s unique Elemental Affinity and Sorcery Trait.[1] A power highly effective against spiritual beings, but not so potent against those whose body is not made out of Ether. When the Matou clan restraining spells are used along with this, it is possible to imprison and skewer the target into a separate dimension composed entirely of shadows. Furthermore, when Angra Mainyu power is imbued on Sakura she is able to use this ability even against normal humans.

 

I think she was just unable to use it because of the worms feeding on her magical energy. Her abilities weren't rendered ineffective as far as I'm concerned. Well, maybe ineffective due to not being able to utilize it to its full extent because of the modifications made by Zouken. I'll look at it again when I reach Heaven's Feel so we can confirm it. Fate/Stay Night cannot be the sole basis anymore though, since the lore has expanded quite a lot. Or it was always this big. :>

 

Edit: Whoops found the answer to my question.

 

Q: Sakura only entered the Holy Grail War during her route, but not in others. Although I think she would develop as the “Black Grail” in any other route, why did Zouken only send her into actual combat in Sakura’s Route? Does that mean Zouken was not in the house in the other routes?

A: Actually Sakura would not develop as the “Black Grail” in any other route. However, when she was chosen by Shirou, “the person she does not wish to lose”, the negative emotions she kept bottled up all these years came flooding out, which accelerated the growth of “All the World’s Evil – Angra Mainyu”.

 

Looks like it isn't the fragments of the Holy Grail or Zouken that made her seize control of the Grail. Rather, it was Shirou's fault. Yep. All his fault. I guess her corruption made her, being another lesser Grail, steal the function of the other lesser Grail, Illya.

[Kaguya]

The funniest thing about Heaven's Feel is that if someone else bothered to explain Shirou what was going on with Sakura he could have solved the route on day 7. 

[Kosakyun]

The funniest thing about Heaven's Feel is that if someone else bothered to explain Shirou what was going on with Sakura he could have solved the route on day 7. 

 

They couldn't bother heh.

Too much of a hassle, I guess.

It's kinda weird that nobody did tell Shirou...

I doubt that the people near him knew though.

[Kaguya]

They couldn't bother heh.

Too much of a hassle, I guess.

It's kinda weird that nobody did tell Shirou...

I doubt that the people near him knew though.

Illya knew what was going on before that date. At a later date (but still, easily solvable) Rin knew too. They just didn't bother telling him because reasons, I guess. 

 

They just didn't consider Shirou's ability to project Caster's NP. Dumb mages. That's why you tell relevant information to your allies when you don't know whether or not they'd be able to help.

[Kosakyun]

Illya knew what was going on before that date. At a later date (but still, easily solvable) Rin knew too. They just didn't bother telling him because reasons, I guess. 

 

They just didn't consider Shirou's ability to project Caster's NP. Dumb mages. That's why you tell relevant information to your allies when you don't know whether or not they'd be able to help.

 

It was once said that a magus trusts no one but himself.

Or I just invented that.

It was implied in one point though, as far as I'm concerned.

I guess it was because of that.

Or it was because they just didn't want Shirou going suicidal again.

There are a lot of reasons.

 

I do agree that they should've told him earlier.

[Kaguya]

It was once said that a magus trusts no one but himself.

Or I just invented that.

It was implied in one point though, as far as I'm concerned.

I guess it was because of that.

Or it was because they just didn't want Shirou going suicidal again.

There are a lot of reasons.

 

I do agree that they should've told him earlier.

It's not about trust, it's more about incompetence. They lose nothing and don't become vulnerable by telling him that. You also can't expect novice mage-kun to know about that type of thing with just implications. It'd take them like, two lines to explain her problem. Actually, one line would be fine. 

 

Suicidal? He'd say "I'll solve your issue for you, Sakura." while she still was completely sane, project rule breaker and use it. Problem solved. No more HF route. The only danger involved is the one of projection, but if they're that worried about him using his magic they might as well forbid him from training. 

[Kosakyun]

Huh. I gotta read Heaven's Feel again.

Only remember bits and pieces.

[madvanced]

So after being a lazy bastard I was finally able to stop postponing UBW and did both endings. It's interesting that Rin can maintain Saber on this world with the help of shirou's magical power in the good end. So the anchor doesn't have to be the holy grail even if the servant doesn't have a complete body(well saber is only a half spirit so she can be considered an exception).

[Kosakyun]

So after being a lazy bastard I was finally able to stop postponing UBW and did both endings. It's interesting that Rin can maintain Saber on this world with the help of shirou's magical power in the good end. So the anchor doesn't have to be the holy grail even if the servant doesn't have a complete body(well saber is only a half spirit so she can be considered an exception).

[madvanced]

I was thinking the same thing.

Would it be possible for the magical energy of two magi to maintain a Servant in the world?

I guess it would if Saber doesn't engage in battle.

[Clephas]

Hmmm.... oh well

[Kosakyun]

Well saber did say this.