Zalor

I agree that anime has become way more acceptable in recent years. Maybe I'm a bit too much of an optimist, but I think it could have an academic breakthrough, I'm just not sure how it would be done. The real concern is with Visual Novels. Sex sells in the west, but anime sex doesn't. Many great visual novels usually contain sex merely because sex scenes make the game more marketable in Japan. I am 100% convinced that the only reason Kanon has any sex scenes was to increase sales. Unfortunately, this has a complete opposite affect in the west. Even if a visual novel has a single 5 minute sex scene that instantly makes it unmarketable here. This is a huge shame because visual novels have SO much potential for story telling. A medium of story telling that combines visuals, audio, and words; you would think the very concept would sell itself... Now I'm straying off topic a bit.

It maybe a bit surprising, but I do agree with you on certain aspects. The whole reason I brought this topic up, is that anime isn't considered art now, but that should change. Anime can be as smart, deep, and insightful as literature, so can VN's, but culturally, for the most part they are viewed as either children's cartoons, or as porn games. If culture's views of anime and VNs stay this way, then people will maintain and accept these incorrect notions. But everyone here knows that VN's and anime are so much more, that is why we need to alter cultures current, and misconceived notions. Yes, we can say that Swan Song, (or some other well written VN) is great, but our opinions do not matter if culture's conception of VNs doesn't change. Culture can be wrong, but it's the judge, and what it says goes. Therefore it is our duty to correct cultures views so it doesn't maintain it's flawed views of anime and VNs. I am also arguing that the best way to accomplish this cultural recognition of anime and VNs, is for the academic community to acknowledge them. Side Note: You may be right that I am mistaken in only recognizing good art as art. Anything that someone creates through expression is arguably art. But I only really care about good art, and since great art does exist through anime and VN's, I would like them to be culturally and intellectually respected as such.

1) No. I have a little sister, and NO!!! The very thought disturbs me. 2) Contrary to my reaction to number 1, I believe literature and fiction should be controversial. Hell I encourages it. While I hate the fact that sibling routes have become a kind of industry standard, I don't mind works that completely focus and analyze incestuous love. So I will never play a sibling route if it is just a mere route, but a VN like Kana: Little Sister that focuses solely on that aspect I would read. In other words if a work of fiction gives a taboo subject proper respect, (like Kana: Little Sister) then it can be commendable. But if a taboo subject is exploited merely to sell, (like most incest routes) then I hate it.

Monster is absolutely fucking brilliant. I rewatched it kinda recently. It is one of those animes that no matter how many times you come back to it you will still discover new things. I can only speak praise of Monster, and Johan is a completely fascinating character.

I acknowledge to a certain extent that that merely trying to define art is nearly impossible, and most people who do end up being labeled as "pretentious", and to a certain extent I will even admit, I am a bit pretentious. However, this stems from the belief that I refuse to accept that art is based entirely on individual opinion. Why isn't art judged merely on opinion, for the same reason I'm about to disprove that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". When I was around 12 or 13 my friends and I would do what many males do at that age and discuss the aesthetics of the girls in our school. I remember this one time I said that some girl or another was really attractive, (actually, realistically I probably said something like, "she's hot"), and all my friends disagreed with that statement, (must have bad taste in women or something). Now, re looking at that that anecdote with some understanding of cultural anthropology, I can say with confidence that beauty is heavily based on culture. What we define as beautiful can vary from culture to culture, and generally cultural views of beauty out weigh the views of an individual. In other words if my views of beauty as a 13 year old were at odds with my culture's views of beauty, then my opinion has very little value. So even if my admittedly extremely pretensions arguments are invalid, I will never believe that art is defined by individual opinion, but rather culturally. Shakespeare's great, and so is Robert Frost, but to a certain respect their greatness is result of the cultural view that they are great artists. To me art is only art if the intellectual and academic culture respects and acknowledges it as art. Hence why the corner stone of my argument in the OP is for anime to be studied in universities and colleges. I suppose Twilight does have a strong enough influence on popular culture to deserve some recognition. But alright, maybe Twilight specifically is getting some recognition, but there were popular fiction novels 50 years ago that have been long forgotten. Why? because while merely entertaining, they didn't have the intellectual depth to be respected by the academic culture and community. Tl;dr Individual opinion doesn't define art or beauty, culture does. Some people hate Shakespeare, but their opinion has little value because it is over ruled by culture. And culturally, Shakespeare is widely revered as a genius.

Ditto, I don't want to sign up until I at least know I have something to contribute.

2 of course. Being remembered is in an abstract way achieving immortality, plus being really old and limited to physical constraints doesn't sound fun. 1) Experience life as a VN (with fast forward, save, load) 2) Live in the world of your favorite VN as the main protagonist.

Last year I had the day off, (actually the week off) because of Hurricane Sandy. Thankfully it didn't effect or damage my neighborhood so I spent the time playing G-Senjou no Maou. This year however, I have classes and essays to write. Hurrah for Halloween, a holiday that doesn't even provide a day off...

I'm arguing that I think anime should be respected as an artistic medium on an intellectual and academic level. Books are a medium of art, and literature is studied as art. Twilight might be published on paper and technically be a book, but it most certainly isn't literature, and therefore isn't art. Art is something earned for being insightful. If I wrote a crappy thriller novel that had no depth beyond entertaining people for a few hours, then it isn't art. So no, I don't think works that strive to merely be entertaining to be art. Entertainment is entertainment, and art is art. There are comedies out there that are insightful, and that can qualify as art. To use an anime example; Welcome to the NHK is really funny, but also delves into some really serious,bleak and dark thoughts that are insightful to the subcultures and individuals that the anime analyzes. Art has got to have some deeper meaning to it, other wise it is entertainment. Not that I think there is anything wrong with entertainment, but I want to draw a distinction between art, and entertainment because there certainly is a difference. A professor of mine once told me he loves junk food, and that entertainment is the equivalent of junk food, but you have to eat healthy as well, and art is a healthy meal.

You don't play School Days for the good endings, you play it for the bad endings.

No it's fine if you disagree with the way I used the term "art". However, while I respect your contribution I do disagree with you. I take my literature, poetry, film, and even anime pretty seriously. Hamlet, The Inferno, Brave New World are all examples of art because they provide insight into a culture and the human condition. They are works that get you to understand, think, and question cultural values and/or what it means to be human. In a similar sense, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Monster, and Kaiji are all examples of animes that are art, because they provide meaning that is beyond surface value. By your definition Twilight is art, and if that were the case then why don't people read Twilight in literature classes? Short answer: because it's not art, not even a contemporary Lit class would read it.

People in Japan may think differently about it, but I don't really view Visual novels as games. I honestly see that as computerized novels with visuals and audio, or Visual Novel. For me to refer to it as a game I would need to redefine my definition of game.

Also, most VN's don't offer character customization, so what you're describing sounds like a brilliant life simulator/RPG/VN. I'll still play along, I wish my character was born as an heir to a wealthy American family that owns large holdings in some huge corporation. (I always wished I was part of the fucking 1%).

Swan Song and G-Senjou both have interesting bad endings. G-Senjou's bad endings in particular are interesting because they show just how evil Kyousuke can become when he sells his soul to money, and isn't saved by love.

So real life?

Point taken and I agree with it. I edited the sentence and deleted "ultimate" from the sentence.

Before I get misunderstood any further, when I said "ultimate", I meant in the way that it combines multiple art forms, not that I think it is better then other forms of art. I repeat, I do NOT think anime is better then other forms of art. Actually in terms of a ratio, anime may not be that far off. In terms of numbers there is a lot less anime, and only a few great anime. But while numerically there are more great books then anime, proportionally there is such large collection of books, (and so many of them that are mediocre or bad) that the ratio for literature: mediocre fiction, could be pretty small as well. In other words as someone else said, most mediums of art only have a few or limited selection of great works that actually accomplish the full potential of the art form. And I would argue that there are some anime out there that have already successfully taken advantage of the potential of such a medium.

Just looked up Grisaia no Kajitsu since I never heard of it before, and it sounds really interesting. Also Yume Miru Kusuri got me to fall in love with visual novels, one of my absolute favorites.

I have considered anime a legitimate art form for several years now. There are animes out there that have influenced and helped structure my views of life on an equivalent level that literature has. What I'm suggesting is should Anime be respected on the level that literature and film are? Should there be courses that analyze anime in the same fashion that there are courses that analyze literature and film? I say yes. I consider anime to be so brilliant because it is a combination of visual art, animation, music, and story telling. You could write a comprehensive paper on the significance of an art style in an anime, or choose to focus exclusively on the story, or focus on how the animation, story and music all harmonize with each other. There are many things to think about when analyzing and interpreting anime precisely because it is a combination of multiple arts, which is why I firmly believe it should be respected as such.

Nice avatar, (I love Yume Miru Kusuri). Also which VNs have you played? If you're only playing translated VNs then 10 is actually a decent amount.

I picked both " tailor it to the one making the request", and, "other (please explain)". If someone is already into anime or VNs then I occasionally tailor to their taste. But most people I meet aren't as into anime as I am, and I've never met anyone who was into VNs; and in this case I usually recommend what I judge as the best. My definition of best is something that is deeply though provoking, exquisitely well written and crafted, as well as enjoyable. I want to make sure people are exposed to the finest anime available similar to how a gourmet would recommend a restaurant.

and Why bother writing when people already said exactly what I think.

Clephas, every time you post recommendations you remind me of all the great VNs I'm missing out on for not knowing any Japanese.

If memory serves me correctly, Tay proposed something like this a while ago. I think the most difficult hurdle to conquer would be to actually commit yourself to a project like making a VN. You need a writer, (or several), multiple good artists, a programmer, and a composer; not to mention they all have to be dedicated and available. Creating a visual novel is a very difficult task because you not only need to find a good team, but it requires strong organization and commitment. I don't like to be the pessimist, but I think most people here want to contribute to a creation of a VN, but when looked at realistically only a few people can dedicate and commit the time required to actually participate, (myself included). However, I do think a forum would be a good idea. I'm not sure how active it would actually be, but as I mentioned organization is an important aspect. And a forum dedicated to such discussions would certainly help organize things.

^ I had the same reaction.