What makes Grisaia no Kajitsu so great?

[Clephas]

One thing that you have to keep in mind with Michiru's setting idea is

that the idea of heart transplant patients receiving influence from the heart's owner has neither been proven or shown as a hoax, because there isn't a large enough sample in existence to provide a solid scientific basis for anything at all. Heart transplants are rare because they have to be carried out within hours of the death of the donor, as opposed to kidneys, which can be preserved for a longer period of time. The simple unlikelihood of a match, combined with a lack of donors, makes it impossible to perform a proper wide-ranging scientific study in the first place.

[Chuee]

The idea that you can transfer a person's being to another person's body, and share it, by anything at all is fairly pseudo-scientific to begin with. 

[storyteller]

Apparently I am better at willing suspension of disbelief than most everyone because I had no problem with Michiru's set-up.

I'm also apparently not as attentive a reader, cuz I don't remember it being retconned in Meikyuu.

(If the retcon is in the after stories, then I wouldn't be surprised I missed it, seeing as I pretty much skipped those).

 

I just did a cursory search of the matter in Japanese and found 0 discussion on it.

Heck, I barely see anyone that has a problem with her initial set-up in the first place.

[Nightmare799]

Apparently I am better at willing suspension of disbelief than most everyone because I had no problem with Michiru's set-up.

I'm also apparently not as attentive a reader, cuz I don't remember it being retconned in Meikyuu.

(If the retcon is in the after stories, then I wouldn't be surprised I missed it, seeing as I pretty much skipped those).

 

I just did a cursory search of the matter in Japanese and found 0 discussion on it.

Heck, I barely see anyone that has a problem with her initial set-up in the first place.

 

Indeed, I dont get why are people so worked up over that. So what? It doesnt matter that it is a fiction based on reality, the medium in question is still fiction.

[Soulless Watcher]

Indeed, I dont get why are people so worked up over that. So what? It doesnt matter that it is a fiction based on reality, the medium in question is still fiction.

I get the feeling that this whole debacle is less about people having a specific problems with the story of grisaia, but more about people being annoyed that some people like this vn alot more than vn x which is their personal favorite, so they nitpick it to death, kinda like me in anime with sao. However, I doubt people are really that petty.... I just assume the worse in people so I can be pleasently surprised when it isn't the case...... on those rare occasions....... when there is a blue moon..... it has happened before!

[Clephas]

The basic concept is the same as

genetic memory. Basically, the idea is that our personalities are at least partially influenced by our genetic makeup and some of our memories might be stored within our cells. To an extent, this is considered to be a definite possibility with many insects and certain animals (cats and dogs in particular).

Personally, the cat idea doesn't surprise me, since all my cats knew 'can means food' before I ever even thought of giving them anything other than dry food...  I never once gave them wet food, but they always came running when I opened a can, anyway.  I had them from birth, too.  lol

 

Edit: nonetheless, I do find the heart patient concept to be a bit hard to believe out of hand. Nonetheless, what do you expect from fiction? From my perspective, it is just an expansion of an existing idea and thus doesn't require much in the way of a suspension of disbelief.

[nohman]

Makina and Michiru spoilers:

Funnily enough, I didn't really find the stuff in Michiru's route even that jarring as far as suspending my disbelief, but the whole devil arm thing that gets presented in Makina's route ended up rubbing me the wrong way.  Then again, Michiru was the last route that I read so I was pretty desensitized already by the other silly things in GnK, plus my impression of the route was tainted from the beginning since I knew going in the reason for her split personality was largely thought to be kinda stupid.

[Down]

The basic concept is the same as

genetic memory. Basically, the idea is that our personalities are at least partially influenced by our genetic makeup and some of our memories might be stored within our cells. To an extent, this is considered to be a definite possibility with many insects and certain animals (cats and dogs in particular).

Personally, the cat idea doesn't surprise me, since all my cats knew 'can means food' before I ever even thought of giving them anything other than dry food...  I never once gave them wet food, but they always came running when I opened a can, anyway.  I had them from birth, too.  lol

 

Edit: nonetheless, I do find the heart patient concept to be a bit hard to believe out of hand. Nonetheless, what do you expect from fiction? From my perspective, it is just an expansion of an existing idea and thus doesn't require much in the way of a suspension of disbelief.

Well yeah but genetic memory doesn't work that way.

Genetic memory is transmitted from a parent to a child. In the case of

a heart transplant, the organ only contains already specialised cells and no stem cells at all, which means they can't express their genome. The genetic information is still in the cell but it's not usable.

 

Regardless of reality, it doesn't really matter. I just think it's not a very interesting plot device at all, and the degree to which I'm ready to accept a plot device varies as a function of how useful it is to the narration.

[LiquidShu]

 

I wonder why it's so popular...

Michiru.

[storyteller]

I'm pretty sure most of us understand how genetic memory works.

Do I believe this is going to ever happen irl? No.

Am I going to nitpick it in a fictional work? No.

I'm sure you don't expect a girl in super-fiber assault-mode maid outfit and gas mask armed with kitchen knives to charges into a group of trained mercenaries armed with guns irl, either.

The plot device isn't that uncommon either. Just look at Area no Kishi.

[Nightmare799]

I get the feeling that this whole debacle is less about people having a specific problems with the story of grisaia, but more about people being annoyed that some people like this vn alot more than vn x which is their personal favorite, so they nitpick it to death, kinda like me in anime with sao. However, I doubt people are really that petty.... I just assume the worse in people so I can be pleasently surprised when it isn't the case...... on those rare occasions....... when there is a blue moon..... it has happened before!

 

Well to be fair, SAO really got shitty fast. first arc was bearable, but the rest of SAO material was utter crap. Really, his anime had incredible premise and the producers managed to completely mess it up.

 

Steins gate is imo how you do a VN/Anime.

[Vokoca]

Makina and Michiru spoilers:

Funnily enough, I didn't really find the stuff in Michiru's route even that jarring as far as suspending my disbelief, but the whole devil arm thing that gets presented in Makina's route ended up rubbing me the wrong way.  Then again, Michiru was the last route that I read so I was pretty desensitized already by the other silly things in GnK, plus my impression of the route was tainted from the beginning since I knew going in the reason for her split personality was largely thought to be kinda stupid.

Also Makina and Michiru spoilers:

It was a long time since I read it, so I might be remembering things wrong, but wasn't that just Yuuji's way of dealing with things? In other words, just a delusion, a form of escapism if you will? It was "just" a psychological problem, I don't see what was so unbelievable about it - unless I'm forgetting some details of course, which is very much possible.

 

Well, it was more believable that transplanting entire personalities and memories with just a heart, anyway.

[Soulless Watcher]

 I'm to fucking lazy to look and see if anyone put some articles in previous posts, but just in case not here is some interesting reads I found on the subject of personality rewrite with organ transplants.

 

"Cellular Memory theory"

http://www.medicaldaily.com/can-organ-transplant-change-recipients-personality-cell-memory-theory-affirms-yes-247498

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/salud/esp_salud25.htm

 

http://skepdic.com/cellular.html

 

Some random articles about people acting like donor....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1237998/Heart-transplant-patient-gets-craving-food-eaten-organ-donor.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-533830/My-personality-changed-kidney-transplant--I-started-read-Jane-Austen-Dostoevsky-instead-celebrity-trash.html

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-30-1180586906_x.htm (This one is a bit disturbing)

 

Well anyway my point being that there is some precedent irl for the Michiru route, yes it is based on stories and theories that havn't been researched fully.... but at the very least I find it not horribly much more of a stretch than let's say....

an entire schoolbus of children having to resort to canniblism and starve because of the perfect storm of geology in a first world country or "monochrome memorization" which was completely BSed up for story purposes, but people buy into it because it is close enough to how photographic memory is depicted in popular culture.

[Nightmare799]

 I'm to fucking lazy to look and see if anyone put some articles in previous posts, but just in case not here is some interesting reads I found on the subject of personality rewrite with organ transplants.

 

"Cellular Memory theory"

http://www.medicaldaily.com/can-organ-transplant-change-recipients-personality-cell-memory-theory-affirms-yes-247498

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/salud/esp_salud25.htm

 

http://skepdic.com/cellular.html

 

Some random articles about people acting like donor....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1237998/Heart-transplant-patient-gets-craving-food-eaten-organ-donor.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-533830/My-personality-changed-kidney-transplant--I-started-read-Jane-Austen-Dostoevsky-instead-celebrity-trash.html

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-30-1180586906_x.htm (This one is a bit disturbing)

 

Well anyway my point being that there is some precedent irl for the Michiru route, yes it is based on stories and theories that havn't been researched fully.... but at the very least I find it not horribly much more of a stretch than let's say....

an entire schoolbus of children having to resort to canniblism and starve because of the perfect storm of geology in a first world country or "monochrome memorization" which was completely BSed up for story purposes, but people buy into it because it is close enough to how photographic memory is depicted in popular culture.

 

I have never seen any disclaimer of this game depicting it as nothing but reality.

This VN is a work of fiction. I dont even see the reason some people are discussing its plausibility when it is absolutely obvious story this game has absolutely no ties to any real life event ever.

 

Besides, the baseball club trip accident was an incredibly awful stroke of bad luck. You will rarely ever encounter a scenario like that in real life, but it is plausible when you consider how remote was the area they got stuck in.

[storyteller]

@angelic howl

You'd be surprised, but those sorts of things do actually happen nowadays.

I know one of my parents' old college friends and his family fell off a cliff or something in Yellow Stone? Or was it Yosemite, I can't remember. One of them national parks. It first took a while for people to realize they were missing, then it took days looking for them.

There are also other works that reference the same sorts of events, such as the manga Limit

[starlessn1ght]

Well to be fair, SAO really got shitty fast. first arc was bearable, but the rest of SAO material was utter crap. Really, his anime had incredible premise and the producers managed to completely mess it up.

 

Steins gate is imo how you do a VN/Anime.

 

To be fair, I really like S;G, but SAO is much better imo. SAO is imo how you do a real anime. It's the greatest anime I've watched.

[Yuuko]

To be fair, I really like S;G, but SAO is much better imo. SAO is imo how you do a real anime. It's the greatest anime I've watched.

I... I d-d-d... Whatever...

[Soulless Watcher]

To be fair, I really like S;G, but SAO is much better imo. SAO is imo how you do a real anime. It's the greatest anime I've watched.

Here we go into the dangerously off topic area, I would love to discuss how much I don't enjoy SAO.... however that would be very off the subject matter at hand. As the original poster I would think you of all people would realize this.

[nohman]

Also Makina and Michiru spoilers:

It was a long time since I read it, so I might be remembering things wrong, but wasn't that just Yuuji's way of dealing with things? In other words, just a delusion, a form of escapism if you will? It was "just" a psychological problem, I don't see what was so unbelievable about it - unless I'm forgetting some details of course, which is very much possible.

 

Well, it was more believable that transplanting entire personalities and memories with just a heart, anyway.

 

It's (relatively) been awhile for me too, but I think you're probably right. My own first thought was it had to do with Yuuji's psychopathic tendencies, but it was vague enough (maybe it wasn't and I was just being thick) that it kinda felt like it could play into some larger conspiracy to be unveiled in the other games. At the time it felt off and took me out of it (having read only Yumiko and Sachi before it), but in hindsight after finishing the game and having knowledge of some of the events in the other two, it seems strange I found it so jarring at the time.

[Nightmare799]

To be fair, I really like S;G, but SAO is much better imo. SAO is imo how you do a real anime. It's the greatest anime I've watched.

 

Well, if ýou feel like SAO is superior, then that is your opinion, I am not gonna inquire on it.

 

fuckin pleeb

jk lol

 

[Nashetania]

To be fair, I really like S;G, but SAO is much better imo. SAO is imo how you do a real anime. It's the greatest anime I've watched.

 

That was funny.

Are you going to be a comedian in the future?

[Clowsama]

Being popular doesn't mean it's good. And being good is subjective to your own tastes. If after the common route and any heroine route you still don't like GnK, don't bother, it just means it's not for you. Sometimes there is no reason for you to don't enjoy something even if everyone is telling you it's awesome. I don't like Breaking Bad. Everyone told me it's the best show ever. But I still don't enjoy it, no particular reason. I just accepted it.

As for Grisaia, well, for me 80% of the fun was the comedy. I like humor, a little drama is good but too much and I end up wondering why I read something that makes me feel bad. And in its category, Grisaia is one of the best comedy I ever read and that common route that many found boring was the highlight. Laughing makes me feel good. And Grisaia mad me laugh a lot. So I love Grisaia.

[MikeY91]

Honestly, i started with Michiru's route which i thought was good (Could have been better), then i played Amane's and didn't really like it, then Sachi's .... near the end of her route i dropped the vn.

I wouldn't say Grisaia is a bad vn but near the end of each route the vn always screws everything up and takes some very weird and extreme approaches to explain whats going on. i am glad to have come across Grisaia only because i was introduced to Michiru whom i consider to be one the best characters i have seen in vns so far. other than that Grisaia had a lot of potential, the back stories for the heroines were emotional and very well done, but like i said at some point in the route suddenly the vns screws everything up. 

[Yuuko]

Well imo Michiru route isn't bad. I quite liked it but I think that the problem is that it's different from the other routes. It works alone but if you compare it to other routes it's stupid. 

[storyteller]

What I find pretty amusing about your experience is that Michiru's route seems to be pretty widely considered to be one of the worst routes in the entire VN, aside from Yumiko's, due to the bullshit pseudoscience involved, the erratic behavior of a few of the characters compared to the other routes, and the overall ridiculousness that's ever-present after the halfway point and the "big reveal".  The story of Michiru's route was actually retconned in Meikyuu, so I think that says something about the quality of the route itself, or at least the general Japanese fan reaction to it.  Amane and Sachi's routes are generally thought of as the best, with some people swapping out Sachi's for Makina's.  Would you mind explaining why you didn't like either of their routes?

I think you may be misinformed. Last time I did a quick search for Michiru in Japanese, I found 0 mention of any retcons, and 0 complaints about the "pseudoscience". These opinions, from what I've seen, seem to only come from people who only played the English version, and I myself remember no retconning in Meikyuu. I also dare say that Michiru is the most popular girl among the crowd in Japan, supported by the fact that she's the only character to have a spin-off title in her name.

*In fact, in a popularity poll, she was 2nd behind (who else) Kazuki.

Edited November 16, 2015 by storyteller