What are you playing?

[SanadaShadow]

...First of all, when a joke runs too long, it is no longer funny. I feel your first comment passed that line. Second, explaining jokes is not a sin, if one does not understand it. Third, the way you view it, it made complete sense. However, my view on the matter was that your statement is just simple nonsense.

[Scars Unseen]

...First of all, when a joke runs too long, it is no longer funny. I feel your first comment passed that line. Second, explaining jokes is not a sin, if one does not understand it. Third, the way you view it, it made complete sense. However, my view on the matter was that your statement is just simple nonsense.

 

Since you seemed not to enjoy the first joke, I'll not use you as my guiding light as to when a joke has gone on too long.  As for whether a sentence makes sense or not...  sentences make sense even if you can't make sense of their contents.

 

  Anyway, enough of all that.  I didn't mean for this to be a thing.  I'll get back to the topic at hand.

 

Making my way through Ryou's route in Clannad.  I'm beginning to see what my problem with the VN is.  With other VNs I've read, you spend a lot of time with most of the main cast, and when they do focus on a single heroine, it usually starts getting fairly serious(even if there is still a lot of humor present).

 

Clannad, at least in the 4 routes I've played so far(including the one I'm on now) doesn't do that.  The only person you consistently interact with is Sunohara, and the VN has done a pretty good job of ensuring that I don't care much about what happens to him at all(after all, the protagonist is the one instigating most of his troubles).  But even though routes seem to focus mostly on just that route's heroine, the tone doesn't change much.  Everything seems fairly light and humorous until the very end, and by then what tone shift does occur is too little, to late.  

 

I'm just not that invested in characters that I've had little interaction with spaced out between segments of sessions of "Sunohara: the butt-monkey."  I get some good laughs, but the drama falls flat because I just don't care what happens to anyone I've met in the VN yet.  It's the same reason that Steins;Gate is so much more effective as a VN than as an anime.  The anime isn't bad at all, but it cuts out so much of the interaction that all of the emotion I felt for anyone other than Kurisu was a carryover from playing the VN.

 

That's what Clannad feels like to me:  a story that forgot to let me get to know the characters before telling me I should care about what's going on.

[SanadaShadow]

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. Sunohara is actually my Favorite character in Clannad. I mean, he's the one you end up spending the most time with in the beginning. However, I found there was just enough time to get attached with some of the other characters for me.

[Vokoca]

  Anyway, enough of all that.  I didn't mean for this to be a thing.  I'll get back to the topic at hand.

(snip)

To be completely honest, Clannad was the first VN with choices that I've read, so my view on it might be quite distorted (I'll most likely need to re-read it to re-evaluate), but I do believe you're still just in the worse parts of the story, assuming you're going along with the guide. There are some much better routes later on.

 

Though I can understand your issue in terms of how different the story is told to what is the norm today. I've escaped this because of reading it first, but I can see it being quite distracting now too. The best way to look at it is probably to ignore the whole notion of a common route and just consider it the character's route from the very moment you start the story - I've actually liked this since I'm not a fan of skipping through the same common route over and over, but I can definitely see how it could be perceived as a minus too.

[douggle]

I preferred Akio and Sanae to Sunohara. They were a riot.

[SanadaShadow]

Meh. I liked them too, but for me, Sunohara Abuse was addictive.

 

Oh, and at this moment I'm playing MegaMan X. If that counts.

 

Edit: Not to self, must stop accidental post-spamming.

[Down]

 

Edit: Not to self, must stop accidental post-spamming.

 

It would help. Merging double-posts is not my #1 favorite activity

[Wahfuu]

For the record, Clannad is extremely bloated, so most of what you're going to read isn't going to be that great. There are only a couple of them that are actually worth the effort, but you still need the lights. Fuko/Nagisa/After story are the things that make Clannad what it is, imo.

[SanadaShadow]

I disagree with everything Wahfuu just said.

[Zakamutt]

Wahfuu is decently correct, but the good non AS parts are Kyou and Kotomi and maybe Sunoharalol route

 

#opinions

[SanadaShadow]

I dunno, I really liked the (almost) twins.

[Kenshin_sama]

That's a pretty rare opinion, but I suppose Maeda Jun's storytelling isn't necessarily for everyone. AS had some emotionally compelling moments, it consistently followed up with its family theme, and developed the protagonist very well. The ending was sweet, it made sense, and it was very heartwarming overall.

And who could ever forget that moment where Tomoya makes up with his father. Well-written family dramas really do have an impact.

[SanadaShadow]

Other than making up with his father, I honestly thought AfterStory was absolute crap. But, I'm somewhat biased because I hate extensions to stories made in ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GAMES.

[Zakamutt]

what is he talking about tomoyo after now

[SanadaShadow]

Just started The Wolf Among Us. I love the art and the story so far is pretty interesting. Though I'm not 100% sure this qualifies as a VN, it definitely has many VN elements

 

Alright, so my friend is flaming on The Walking Dead and The Wolf Among Us, "because they're not full of text and CG, but they're actual moving people interacting with an actual world solving actual crimes". But honestly, how is it a VN anyways?

[Scars Unseen]

Alright, so my friend is flaming on The Walking Dead and The Wolf Among Us, "because they're not full of text and CG, but they're actual moving people interacting with an actual world solving actual crimes". But honestly, how is it a VN anyways?

 

It's not.  Like a visual novel, TWD(haven't played the other one) is an interactive fiction, but it's probably closer to old adventure games like Shadowgate than it is to VNs.  I see it as something of a sliding scale, as some VNs have more gameplay elements than others, but TWD is missing that vital "novel" part of the equation.

[Zakamutt]

Wow, I completely messed up. I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore. I'm confused. I'm sleepy. Please just... Get off my case for a short while, okay?

I don't normally do this, ok, but at this point I simply have to express myself using an image.

[Darklord Rooke]

It is just how your friend says though, I think it's probably more of an adventure game than a VN.

 

Yep. An adventure game = Narrative + puzzles (can be anything from dialogue to environmental) + exploration. I'm certain TWD qualifies, and while I haven't yet played 'The Wolf Among Us' I'm fairly positive it's also an adventure game. That being said, you can say the same thing for Ace Attorney, yet that always gets labelled as a VN for some reason.

 

I think Telltales games shows there's an immense potential for VN style games in the West. 

[Wahfuu]

Wahfuu is decently correct, but the good non AS parts are Kyou and Kotomi and maybe Sunoharalol route

 

#opinions

I guess Kyou's part is okay, but other than that I honestly can't say I found anything else that special. AS finally uses the theme of family in a strong way and goes fairly far with it and contains the raw emotional power that the heavy majority of people remember Clannad for. The rest of it I find just normal drama/hijinks I've seen elsewhere done alot better.

Either way you'll still have to dig through Clannad for quite awhile before you find something you'll like. It's really just way too big.

[Yin]

Finished Akatsuki no Goei and its fandisc.

 

Come with a lot of expectations, now I'm really regret playing them. The first game is nothing more than a moege, and the fandisc is even worse. Anzu route contains a lot of info dumps, (and a homo H-scene). Although I liked her route, it's too short and the ending is unsatisfying. Honestly, I'm not sure if I can move on to Tsumibukaki Shuumatsuron, since the orginal game is too disapointing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(ENGRISH, a long way to go )

[Vokoca]

Finished Akatsuki no Goei and its fandisc.

 

Come with a lot of expectations, now I'm really regret playing them. The first game is nothing more than a moege, and the fandisc is even worse. Anzu route contains a lot of info dumps, (and a homo H-scene). Although I liked her route, it's too short and the ending is unsatisfying. Honestly, I'm not sure if I can move on to Tsumibukaki Shuumatsuron, since the orginal game is too disapointing.

Well, the sequel is more serious if that's what you're looking for - but it definitely doesn't have satisfying conclusions.

[Scars Unseen]

Okay.  Finished Ryou and Kyou's routes.  

 

Ryou's wasn't really anything special, but Kyou's route finally has me a bit more interested in the VN.  I still wouldn't rate it above most other VNs I've played, but the drama wasn't half bad this time.  Turns out that, in addition to what I posted on the previous page, the big difference that made me enjoy Kyou's route above the others is that -for once- Tomoya actually gave a damn about something.  

 

This is the first time that there was any real inner conflict in the protagonist's thoughts.  In all the previous routes, he pretty much just went with the flow, not seeming to really care that much about anything at all(which I guess is the difficulty in using a delinquent as the protagonist).  I hope that this trend continues.

 

On the other hand, I may take a bit of a break and play something else for a while.  I've now gone through 5 routes(though I'm not sure if I can really count Ryou and Kyou as separate), but it seems I'm not even half way through.  I may start doing routes between other stuff, but -at least for now- I think I'm done trying to push through them one after another.

[Scars Unseen]

Kyou is probably my favourite character from Clannad, yet her route is the one I dislike the most.

 

It's not Clannad's storytelling that bothers me, like Kenshin-sama probably would say. It's its very structure. Kyou's route is, for me, the VN's worst flaw. If you actually want to get Kyou's route, you have to go through Ryou's, which makes sense in terms of storytelling, but absolutely not in terms of sctructure. Unless you can enjoy a VN while being completely disconnected from the protagonist and his actions, which I can't, this passage seems arbitrary and completely counterintuitive. It'd be fine in a novel, really. The drama is relatable and the way seemingly unimportant elements come into play with full force later, like Ryou's passion for fortune-telling, is admirable. But how can you put yourself in Okazaki's shoes when your doubts are not his doubts?

 

Unless I'm actually the only one who yearns for intense, symbiotic almost, connection with the protagonist.

 

Hmm...  I'm not sure I entirely agree with this.

 

This reasoning stems from the mindset of trying for specific people's routes.  There's nothing wrong with that -it is what I am doing after all- but it isn't really a flaw with the structure so much as it is a mismatch with the way I am playing the VN(i.e. with a guide).  A closer inspection of the structure reveals that there is no discrete Ryoh route at all; her story is simply a subset of Kyoh's.

 

The thing is that the entire time you are pursuing(or rather being pushed onto) Ryoh, there is plenty of indication that Kyoh is the true heroine of the route.  The way your thoughts, actions and words frequently match up with Kyoh's is pretty clear, and if it wasn't Sunohara is there to blatantly point it out to you.  The choices that bring you closer to Ryoh are all initiated by Kyoh.  When you start a discrete relationship with Ryoh, it's Kyoh that Sunohara accuses you of dating.  Everything in the route points towards one inevitable truth:  Tomoya and Ryoh do not work nearly so well as a couple as Tomoya and Kyoh would.

 

The big turning point couldn't be more obvious.  The elder sister offers to practice kissing with you.  At that point it is clear that you are being asked who you(as a player) prefer.  In Tomoya's case, this is also the place in the story where the first seed of doubt is planted.  Until now, the question at hand was "Do I like Ryoh or not?"  After the close encounter with Kyoh, he finally starts to see the possibility that Sunohara assumed was the case much earlier: that not only does he not particularly like Ryoh, but rather he does in fact like her sister.  Moreover, this decision, or more specifically the rumor that spreads from it, creates the external pressure that forces the cast out of their comfort zones.

 

That is why choosing not to practice leads to a "bad" end.  It's not that there is anything particularly wrong with ending up with Ryoh, but without the combination of internal doubt and external pressure, Tomoya never acknowledges his true feelings, and Kyoh suffers in silence.  You can't even truly say that it is 100% a good end for Ryoh, as the true ending of the route reveals that she was well aware of both Kyoh's feelings and Tomoya's doubt, but she decided to ignore both to pursue her own desire.  Living with the knowledge that your boyfriend may not really feel affection for you and that you intentionally manipulated your twin sister to get into said relationship probably isn't something that will lead to long term happiness.

 

From my reading of the route, I'd say that all decisions make sense and are fairly well foreshadowed.  I may not have been able to guess every turn of the story, but none of results of my choices really conflicted with the direction I thought the story I was going.  I could see a complaint if one really wanted a discrete Ryoh route, but I feel that it's better just to call it the Fujibayashi twins route instead.

[SanadaShadow]

I don't normally do this, ok, but at this point I simply have to express myself using an image.

 

When I'm confused, I'm REALLY confused. I didn't even think about doing that.

[Kenshin_sama]

Kyou is probably my favourite character from Clannad, yet her route is the one I dislike the most.

 

It's not Clannad's storytelling that bothers me, like Kenshin-sama probably would say. It's its very structure. Kyou's route is, for me, the VN's worst flaw. If you actually want to get Kyou's route, you have to go through Ryou's, which makes sense in terms of storytelling, but absolutely not in terms of sctructure. Unless you can enjoy a VN while being completely disconnected from the protagonist and his actions, which I can't, this passage seems arbitrary and completely counterintuitive. It'd be fine in a novel, really. The drama is relatable and the way seemingly unimportant elements come into play with full force later, like Ryou's passion for fortune-telling, is admirable. But how can you put yourself in Okazaki's shoes when your doubts are not his doubts?

 

Unless I'm actually the only one who yearns for intense, symbiotic almost, connection with the protagonist.

 

I'm sorry, I suppose I was sort of making a generalized categorization of your tastes and made a bad assumption. I suppose you could call it a cynical side I've developed with forums over the years. Otherwise, I could definitely say I didn't take any particular notice to the side-stories since it was really only AS I cared about (though I did still enjoy them, in some ways). And while my memory of the series isn't particularly fresh (and I've only seen Clannad told through a completely different medium, anyways), I do have enough experience with Key's writers to know that most of them can't write their characters that well, and I can see how your experience with Kyou would be put off by Ryou. You really won't see better structure from Key games until you get to Little Busters and Rewrite where the side routes actually have a lot more relevance to the main route story (more so in Rewrite than Little Busters).

 

Edit: And sorry again. I did feel a need to make a response, but I only lightly read your arguments since I don't want to spoil too much from when I do start the VN. I'll likely have more to add to this once I do, but it doesn't really seem like you'd be wrong, anyways.