ittaku Posted June 29, 2023 Posted June 29, 2023 Playing Onigokko FD. Interesting to see ALcot's evolution from its earlier works to Clover Day's. Shaun 1 Quote
ChaosRaven Posted June 29, 2023 Posted June 29, 2023 On 6/21/2023 at 6:32 PM, adamstan said: Wow, over 2 months since last post in this thread Is this forum still alive? Actually, I'm not sure if it was a good idea to sticky this thread, because stickied threads tend to get overlooked. But yeah, I think most VN discussions are on reddit nowadays. Quote
StringM Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 (edited) Finally opened up to trying Clannad: Was avoiding it mainly because of how long it was. I kept saying to myself that it was too much time for me to invest and, since I've already watched the anime a couple of times, maybe it wasn't worth it. But I was wrong... I'm very, very early still (just finished Misae's route). But oh my god, I exceed my expectations. I started reading with this guide and thought to myself that the other characters where likely to be just filler for Nagisa's route, but I was wrong. Misae's route was absolutely wonderful and almost brought me to tears. Didn't believe they were actually going to bring so much depth to a character that otherwise may have felt like filler for the main route. I also feel a bit dumb because... Spoiler I didn't actually realize until I read it later that Shima was actually a cat all along. I kinda thought that he was something of an "entity" or the spirit of the original Shima who later reincarnated as the cat who was alongside Misae. Nevertheless, it was beautiful. Very excited to keep on playing. Edited July 1, 2023 by StringM Quote
fuyopon Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 Hiya!! Man, I haven't post in a while and I don't remember the last vn I was reading back then... I think I had just finished Steins; Gate? Anyway, I started Umineko and I am not on episode 2! I'm LOVING IT I've been trying to read an hour a day at least but for the last two weeks I've been failing it hard cuz of Fuwa work :sob oh the irony ——————— Oh and also, I've played a bunch of VN demos from the Steam Next Fest event — ghostpia (I loved this so much); BRXKEN INSIDE; Every Hue of You; Fragile Feelings; from Madness with Love; Monster Lover: Balasque; Tenebrae; and The Frozen Kingdom.  Dreamysyu 1 Quote
littleshogun Posted July 1, 2023 Posted July 1, 2023 (edited) Playing Venus Blood Hypno/Hollow, and compared to Frontier it's easier to get high rank now that you have the game tell you the S goal rank along with on how much your progress. Of course you can always ignoring it (And in turn it make the game easier), but it should be enough for a self-imposed challenge run. Oh yes, you can corrupt the heroines like in Frontier, although this time you need to wait until the rest phase (So no waiting in order to fill Train gauge to corrupt the heroines before attacking the territory like in Frontier anymore). Edited July 3, 2023 by littleshogun Quote
Shiawase_Rina Posted July 2, 2023 Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) JackJeanne JackJeanne is a special Otome Game written and illustrated by Tokyo Ghoul's Ishida Sui and it's everything I wanted it to be! My heart broke with the cancelation of Act-Age and A3! (English Version) so I had a mighty need of more theater fiction. Combine my desire for theater and otome games and anyone can see why JackJeanne had my entire focus despite drowning in games. I started with Suzu's Route and I took 1,5 weeks for it lol JackJeanne is just super long for an otome game (4-6 hours per route is what I'm used from Otomate). I really enjoy the preparations for the plays, finding out what kind of story we get to see this time and who will play who. Everyone doing their best learning their character, thinking about their role in the play and feeling like you're not good enough. When it comes to the plays themself, I like the Fall Performance for the quality acting and the Winter Performance for the feelings it gave me the most. The Univeil Performance was quite something too tho! Especially since it will differ in every route. I also enjoy when the "Girl protag pretends to be a boy" tropes come into play. Suzu catching feelings for his bro not knowing Kisa's a girl and the comedy that follows. It get's even funnier once he knows lol Spoiler Please let the hot spring event happen for everyone! Suzu was SO MAD once he realized that he unknowingly bathed with her. Hilarious! It's also funny how worried Kisa get's about hiding her gender when she absolutely has nothing to worry about. Rhodonite is femboy central and has boys much more feminine than she is! I can't wait to see how the other routes will go! I think I'm most curious about Neji and Kai. Neji for being a hot mess who really get's under everyone's skin. Spoiler Winter was painful and it was 100% His fault! It was great but man... And Kai since I really sympathize with him. He's a good guy who deserves more than he usually get's. I want a happy end for him! I think I can already recommend JackJeanne to anyone who likes stories about making a play, stories about pretending to be a gender you're not and if you like femboys lol Edited July 2, 2023 by Shiawase_Rina Mobil formatting has to be learned lol Dreamysyu and fuyopon 1 1 Quote
fuyopon Posted July 8, 2023 Posted July 8, 2023 (edited) On 7/2/2023 at 2:00 PM, Shiawase_Rina said: JackJeanne JackJeanne is a special Otome Game written and illustrated by Tokyo Ghoul's Ishida Sui and it's everything I wanted it to be! My heart broke with the cancelation of Act-Age and A3! (English Version) so I had a mighty need of more theater fiction. Combine my desire for theater and otome games and anyone can see why JackJeanne had my entire focus despite drowning in games. I started with Suzu's Route and I took 1,5 weeks for it lol JackJeanne is just super long for an otome game (4-6 hours per route is what I'm used from Otomate). I really enjoy the preparations for the plays, finding out what kind of story we get to see this time and who will play who. Everyone doing their best learning their character, thinking about their role in the play and feeling like you're not good enough. When it comes to the plays themself, I like the Fall Performance for the quality acting and the Winter Performance for the feelings it gave me the most. The Univeil Performance was quite something too tho! Especially since it will differ in every route. I also enjoy when the "Girl protag pretends to be a boy" tropes come into play. Suzu catching feelings for his bro not knowing Kisa's a girl and the comedy that follows. It get's even funnier once he knows lol  Reveal hidden contents Please let the hot spring event happen for everyone! Suzu was SO MAD once he realized that he unknowingly bathed with her. Hilarious! It's also funny how worried Kisa get's about hiding her gender when she absolutely has nothing to worry about. Rhodonite is femboy central and has boys much more feminine than she is! I can't wait to see how the other routes will go! I think I'm most curious about Neji and Kai. Neji for being a hot mess who really get's under everyone's skin.  Reveal hidden contents Winter was painful and it was 100% His fault! It was great but man... And Kai since I really sympathize with him. He's a good guy who deserves more than he usually get's. I want a happy end for him! I think I can already recommend JackJeanne to anyone who likes stories about making a play, stories about pretending to be a gender you're not and if you like femboys lol Aw, cool to see more people here playing otome! Jack Jeanne is one that caught my eye for sure!! ⋆。°✩⋆。°✩⋆。°✩⋆。°✩⋆。°✩⋆。°✩⋆。°✩⋆。°✩⋆。°✩⋆。°✩ I myself am currently reading Umineko and Synesthesia. I'm keeping a daily log for Umineko, maybe I should share that one here! Great, I'll do just that! ... Starting tomorrow. Synesthesia is very interesting for sure, though the voice acting gave me a bit of whiplash because they are AI (synthetic voices, at least). I got used to them pretty quickly, and I guess it's a fine alternative for people who don't have the budget for it. There's always the option to mute it (and the games does tell you that at the beginning, which I found pretty nice). The art is fine and all, though there were two things that bothered me a little. Not to the point of annoyance, but I did notice. 1) The female characters are much more detailed than their male counterparts. That isn't exactly uncommon, of course, but it's to the point of looking at different artstyles (which might not be a stretch?) and 2) the girls are... way too detailed. Like, if I had clothes that wrinkly, I'd have to iron them! I'm just playing around, it isn't that bad, but as an artist who struggled with that at the beginning, it's something I take notice of hahaha Edited July 10, 2023 by Fujoneko Shiawase_Rina 1 Quote
Shinyun226 Posted July 8, 2023 Posted July 8, 2023 Just finished THE LOST ONE Last Chapter of Eve this past week.  OMG what a mess that last section was lol. So I went into this game with low expectations, but actually found MOST of it to be pretty decent. It's dumb, but still pretty enjoyable overall; I think it's just the horribly anticlimactic ending that drives it to kusoge status. Spoiler I actually liked the new protagonist, Kirino Kyouko. She's utterly incompetent, but pretty cute. Kyouko and Yuuji's dynamic, particularly their interactions when they first arrive in Eldia, is honestly one of the better parts of the game. I'm guessing she must have been at least kind of popular since she apparently shows back up in the modern sequels. Snake/Kenjou on the other hand is... not really even a character. The playing as the villain dynamic was kind of interesting at the beginning but... with the amount of flip-flopping he does, his motivations really make no sense. Was there any explanation for that weird meta section where he says he's gonna stop listening to you, and the "Player" briefly becomes a distinct character from Kenjou but... it doesn't really go anywhere. WTF was that? Using a fax machine to translate what a dolphin is saying and print out a picture of what it saw. Amazing. If I remember anything about this stupid game, it'll be this. Why doesn't Pricia have any god damn security???? They literally let anyone just wander into the palace, and go into her bedroom etc... And what purpose did the whole fake assassination serve??? Moments before that scene, we learn that the whole Basquiat sect was turning on Romeos and was now loyal to Pricia. It makes sense why Romeos would try to kill her because of that but.... it doesn't explain why Pricia thought she had to let him "succeed" OMG Kyouko is so damn stupid. She learns there's a killer virus that puts people into comas. She immediately find someone like this, and just figures they're asleep. Later that day, she finds him again, "weird, he's still asleep". It takes a full day and some help from Yuuji before she finally puts two and two together and figures out that this guy might not just be sleeping. Kyouko and Yuuji literally go "searching" for a vaccine, then give up after looking through the 4 available locations. Yeah, because you're just gonna find one. Why the hell did Sakuraba just randomly show up in the desert????? Prior to Kyouko telling him, he clearly had no idea that a vaccine for LOST ONE was possible even, so he obviously wasn't out there to stop them from finding Mayako. It feels like the creative team ran out of time/budget, and needed to end the game quick so they just threw together a last minute show-down with the villain. I can't imagine how out of nowhere it must have been in the original version which lacked the extra Marina section (wherein the player officially learns Sakuraba is still alive) Kyouko and Yuuji, neither of which are medical professionals, somehow just make a vaccine in a tent in the desert using some instructions that Maina threw together??? Really??? And then the game just ends after that????? THAT'S IT!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!!?!? lol At least Himuro had a decent amount of screen time, I guess. Speaking of which, apparently she dies in the original Saturn version/EVE: THE LOST ONE? Or at least it was left ambiguous. Apparently the credits CG of her in the Windows version was specifically added to make it clear she's still alive since her 'death' pissed the fans off. Poor Mayako. That's all  Overall, a pretty disappointing follow-up to Burst Error, albeit some of the stupid stuff that happened was pretty memorable. Glad I played either way - Gave me a good laugh if nothing else. Quote
Dreamysyu Posted July 9, 2023 Posted July 9, 2023 On 7/2/2023 at 3:00 PM, Shiawase_Rina said: JackJeanne is a special Otome Game written and illustrated by Tokyo Ghoul's Ishida Sui and it's everything I wanted it to be! Looks really cool, actually. Too bad it's console-only. fuyopon 1 Quote
Eclipsed Posted July 14, 2023 Posted July 14, 2023 I've red a handful of VNs over the past few months but never got around to really doing one of my usual misc. thoughts/comments A Clockwork Ley-Line: good if you're still into SoL high school setting, except make it in a magic school setting. There's not really heavy emphasis on the magic itself ie. no classroom infodumps about magic and/or students learning about magic and battling each other sorcerer vs witches style, just mainly protagonist Koga Michiru and friends from the Bureau of Investigation club running around trying to capture rogue magical artifacts that cause supernatural shenanigans to occur in the school, with an overarching mystery regarding the school itself. Trilogy, so you have plenty of time to get attached to the cast and watch the blossoming romance between Michiru and main heroine Shishigatani Ushio. Now that I think about it, I actually didn't finish this lol, stopped early on in the last episode because life so I'll pick it up #soon. 7/10 "Ya, the Bureau totally works for the sake of the school and aren't a part of any sketchy conspiracies "  Corpse Factory: randomly tried this OELVN, yes you read that right OEL, ENGLISH VN, and surprisingly had a pretty good time with it. The English voice cast was decent enough that I actually listened to most of the lines fully instead of my usual half-listen-but-then-move-onto-next-line-before-audio-finishes for regular JVNs. Plot was alright, was mostly intrigued by the characters themselves and how messed up in the head they can be. 8/10. "Yeah... I've never actually watched DEATH NOTE (i know, blasphemy, sue me), but I'd imagine there's some inspiration taken from it..?" Spoiler "Uhh... yeah, keep dreaming bub."  "...And you can keep dreaming too LOL"  Process of Elimination: The Detective Alliance consists of 100 super detectives that have a particular special ability and they are trying to capture "The Quartering Duke" a criminal mastermind who's been on a killing spree. 14 of the detectives get isolated trapped at their very own Detective Alliance Headquarters, murders start happening, and chances are the mastermind is among the 14...Yup it's a Danganronpa offbrand isolated murder mystery setting type with a quirky cast each with specializations, but hey you have technically 14 Ultimate Detectives this time around so how hard could it be to find out who's the mastermind ? The "investigation" and eureka! segments are played out as strategy RPG gameplay where you turn based move characters to points of interest and analyze evidence. Not as flashy as Danganronpa's classroom trials, and overall most of the murders and cases are pretty meh and ultimately the confrontation with the big bad totally falls flat and totally cannot hold a candle to Danganronpa's Hope vs Despair shenanigans, but it was fun enough. 7/10 "^This here's 'Ideal Detective', and yeah, they totally made her such an ideal type lol. Btw the protagonist is known as 'Incompetent Detective'"  Umineko: When the Seagulls Cry: Sigh, yes, I finally got around to reading the masterpiece that is Umineko. I red someone say that Umineko's mass 10/10 ratings is from survivor bias- this thing is LONG, like probably the longest VN I've ever read, and took me like 1-1.5months on and off casual reading to take down lol. The 75hr length estimate on VNDB is no joke. And that's just for Ep 1-4, with 5-8 also being another 70+hr estimate!!! And so the people that did manage to finish were the ones that thoroughly enjoyed and thus were able to make it to the end. Umineko's very good. Especially for its time. It's basically a murder mystery with an emphasis on battle of wits on whether it was done via a witch/supernatural or whether everything could be logic'd out and the culprit was human with realistic methods. It unfortunately kinda... devolves and drags later on, but I enjoyed my time with it. 8/10 "^If you don't get absolutely hooked on this VN by the time you reach the end of Episode One and hear this BGM, just drop the VN."  Master Detective Archives: Rain Code. Spike Chunsoft's latest Danganronpa x Al: Somnium Files had a baby. Technically not a pure VN since they have enough adventure game aspects so this game got the Zero Time Dilemma treatment on VNDB but yeah. "If you enjoyed Danganronpa's Classroom Trials this game implements some of that, and if you enjoyed Al Somnium Files' quirky female companion or the Somniums this game also implements some of that via Shinigami and the Mystery Labyrinths. Play it."  fuyopon, ChaosRaven and adamstan 2 1 Quote
Dreamysyu Posted July 16, 2023 Posted July 16, 2023 I feel like it's been twelve thousand years since I posted in this thread. So, I started reading Bokuten, and I hope I finish it. Actually, it's stupid that the last full-length VN I finished was in 2020. I started quite a few since then but lacked the motivation to continue. So, does anyone know if there is some recommended route order in Bokuten? And should I use a walkthrough? I generally prefer to avoid using it, but there are some cases when necessary. adamstan 1 Quote
littleshogun Posted July 17, 2023 Posted July 17, 2023 (edited) According to the localisation staffs, the route order are Minamo, Yuri, and Naruko before finally proceeding to Aine's route (aka the true route). As for using walkthrough, the choices are simple enough, although you may as well check the spoiler free walkthrough if you want to be sure. For Bokuten, well, to me one of the route is like soap opera. Still, have fun on playing Bokuten if you didn't mind some sad story. Edited July 18, 2023 by littleshogun adamstan and Dreamysyu 1 1 Quote
adamstan Posted July 18, 2023 Posted July 18, 2023 On 7/17/2023 at 1:56 AM, Dreamysyu said: I feel like it's been twelve thousand years since I posted in this thread. So, I started reading Bokuten, and I hope I finish it. Actually, it's stupid that the last full-length VN I finished was in 2020. I started quite a few since then but lacked the motivation to continue. So, does anyone know if there is some recommended route order in Bokuten? And should I use a walkthrough? I generally prefer to avoid using it, but there are some cases when necessary. It still sits in my backlog, so I'm really looking forward to your opinion after you play it. Quote
Dreamysyu Posted July 18, 2023 Posted July 18, 2023 11 hours ago, adamstan said: It still sits in my backlog, so I'm really looking forward to your opinion after you play it. I've finished chapter one of the common route, and it seems pretty good for now! I'm actually surprised that the vndb rating is so low. After skimming over the reviews, it seems that people just complain about an utsuge being an utsuge. Quote
littleshogun Posted July 19, 2023 Posted July 19, 2023 Actually, there's more than utsuge being an utsuge when it come to Bokuten's flaw, and you'll probably see why later. Dreamysyu 1 Quote
Dreamysyu Posted July 20, 2023 Posted July 20, 2023 23 hours ago, littleshogun said: Actually, there's more than utsuge being an utsuge when it come to Bokuten's flaw, and you'll probably see why later. Well, I tried not to read them in too much detail since I didn't want to be spoiled. It's entirely possible that things will go in the wrong direction later, and it totally happens with VNs sometimes. Hapymaher, for example, had excellent first few chapters, but later things got very weird. However, so far the writing in Bokuten seems pretty good, and while it does feel a bit cheesy from time to time, I can kind of relate to the characters. And the MC seems pretty good, which is rare for VNs. I think some people may find him annoying, but I somewhat understand where he's coming from. And yeah, he's quite obviously severely depressed. So, I guess, I'll try not to have too big expectations, but I hope everything turns out well. adamstan 1 Quote
Dreamysyu Posted July 24, 2023 Posted July 24, 2023 So, I guess I'm almost done with Bokuten common route. Well, that was something. Quite often, even in good VNs, common routes feel like a waste of time. I like SOL when it serves a purpose in the story, but I hate it when it's used as useless filler. However, the common route in Bokuten is nothing like that. Basically, every chapter tells its own finished story. And the choices it gives are often pretty difficult. Almost every option comes don't to whether you let a couple of lovers fall apart or let them come together despite all the complications it will bring them. I decided to follow a walkthrough since there seems to be a recommended route order, but now I wonder which route I'd end up at if I chose what I believed was right. adamstan 1 Quote
adamstan Posted July 24, 2023 Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) I am currently in the middle of PSVita version of Ano Ko wa Ore kara Hanarenai and it's a bit disappoiting So far I finished 3 out of 5 routes - I'm going in the order the girls are listed at choice screen, so I've already read Yuzuki, Manami and Haruka's routes. Console version gives not-so-subtle hint about Yuzuki being main heroine, since only her route gives gold trophy, with all others being silver And I think I'm glad I did her route first. It was decent, and common route was quite funny. But then, when reading Manami's route the things started to feel quite repetitive, and the SoL in this game isn't strong enough to carry it - they're no ToneWorks, that's for sure. But at least this route had a bit of a plot. However Haruka's route that I finished yesterday was really awfuly bland, and when it ended I was like "Wait, that's it?". I checked against PC version, and it seems that this game is one of those borderline-nukige-moeges, with the main focus being on H-scenes (four per heroine, and the routes aren't long). And it became obvious in Haruka's route, which in console version has almost no meaningful content left GIGA went really cheap on this game - providing no extra content for console version at all. It's even bigger disappointment compared to how brilliant all-ages versions of Chocolat, Parfait and Kono Aozora ni Yakusoku o were. (But then, those three are written by Maruto, so I guess they're different league ) I don't remember now, if Aonatsu Line had additional content, but it had good enough story, that stood on its own without H content. I'll read two remaining routes, but I start to regret buying this VN At least I didn't pay too much, since I got it on some sale But if main body of GIGA's moege output was as bland as this title, then it's no wonder they folded Edited July 24, 2023 by adamstan Dreamysyu 1 Quote
adamstan Posted July 27, 2023 Posted July 27, 2023 On 7/24/2023 at 9:29 AM, adamstan said: I'll read two remaining routes, Okay, yesterday I finished  Ano Ko wa Ore kara Hanarenai. Aoi's route had some potential - nice fourth wall breaking, with routes and flags talk , and I think you can make some nice story with otaku-ojousama heroine, but in this case it again got totally wasted, because it is painfully underdeveloped. Just as Haruka's route, it's a collection of loosely connected short scenes, and while there are some nice moments here and there, the pacing and flow is nonexistent. It isn't as bad as Hachigatsu no Nostalgia, which was the worst offender in that aspect so far, but close... Momiji's route, despite her being token loli-imouto-type character, was quite nice, and, like Yuzuki's and Manami's routes, featured more coherent story, (and some ichaicha outside H-scenes) but it also felt unfinished. Not giving any replacement for removed H-content was really bad idea - the game feels unfinished, and the scenes often end quite abruptly. So overally it was quite a disappointment - likeable heroines and nice comedy in common route got completely wasted by lazily done underdeveloped routes. 6.5/10 from me (If you play PC version, and H-scenes are to your liking, I guess you could add a 0.5 or even whole point to that score...) Also, it doesn't play nicely with emulator, and kept crashing on me every 5 to 15 minutes  Quote
adamstan Posted August 7, 2023 Posted August 7, 2023 (edited) Since recently WHITE ALBUM remake got Steam release, I started reading this. It seems to be direct port of PS3 edition, almost identical to DMMs version from 2012, but with added 1080p resolution and translations. (I also have physical PS3 edition, but obviously PC port is more convenient) I'm reading it in Japanese, but according to some reports, English translation seems to be decent (I might check it out later). For now I can only say that it looks nice, I like the voice acting and lip-sync animation for sprites Edited August 7, 2023 by adamstan Quote
littleshogun Posted August 12, 2023 Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) Decided to replay Venus Blood Frontier now that we have Gaia released and decided to try to get the best rank as much as possible, and let's just say that turned out it's far more difficult compared to when I just skipped several turn in order to gather the resource considering that it's severely lacking in the beginning. It didn't help that the enemies deploy much more troops compared to Gaia and Hollow, and not to mention several invasion that will ate the turn (You can just choke the invasion in Gaia and Hollow). That said, I finally understand why people said it's quite hard, because I can't see why people said so when I play through Frontier the first time, although then again getting S Rank in Frontier first playthrough is amounted to Self-Imposed Challenge. Edited August 12, 2023 by littleshogun Quote
Dreamysyu Posted August 14, 2023 Posted August 14, 2023 So, Bokuten. Had to pause playing for a few weeks, since I was either on a trip or busy, but I'm mostly done with Minamo's route. There's still the second ending left, but I doubt it changes much. And, well... The common route was truly amazing. Honestly, compared to many other vns where it's just a complete filler, here each chapter of the common route tells its own complete story, and I believe it's a very good idea. Minamo's route, however, is simply boring. Honestly, it's just your cliche VN stuff without much substance. These types of stories is exactly why I don't really play many VNs anymore. I'd usually recommend to skip this route, but the true route is locked before you finish everything else, so it's not an option. adamstan 1 Quote
TexasDice Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 I'm done with Clover Days. That was fun. Very cutesy. ittaku and adamstan 2 Quote
adamstan Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) Somehow I cannot "get into" WHITE ALBUM. I'm really not a fan of dating-sim mechanics as used in this title a.k.a. "DIY common route" It all feels disjointed and flat. Fureraba also used similar system, but I feel like it had some more actual story between selectable scenes - while W.A. gives you only an "event" every few days, and in between it's just boring short selectable "conversation scenes", which feel somehow like a chore to get through... (especially since it's kind of maze you have to navigate carefully - like, with a guide - to land on the route you want) So, I guess, dating-sims are too "sandbox" for me - I prefer more "focused" experience from VN. (I also might be having a bit of moege burnout? I never thought this would happen ) Edited August 31, 2023 by adamstan Quote
adamstan Posted October 6, 2023 Posted October 6, 2023 Damn, this thread is as dead as my White Album's reading I haven't made much progress since my last post - I think that counts as "stalled" at this point I might try to make it to the end of Yuki's route - perhaps the ending will wow me, although somehow I doubt it... It seems that actual dating sims are simply not my thing - I feel overwhelmed by the "sandbox" vibe, and bored by repetitive "conversation" scenes... And then in this game MC doesn't work for me neither as self-insert nor an interesting character to observe Quote
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