The fun in grinding

[InvertMouse]

Hello everyone ! Hope you are having an awesome Halloween.

Ever since let's plays became a thing, I have been watching YouTubers play RPGs rather than going through the games myself. Most players skip the parts where they grind or revisit the same dungeon, which is more time efficient from my point of view.

I wanted to see if anyone out there actually enjoys the grinding process? If so, I would love to understand the reasons. Seeing those stats go up over time can feel rewarding, I imagine. I also read in some game design book that certain players take grinding as a challenge. They enjoy figuring out how to level up in the most time efficient manner possible.

I remember when I was little, I blew so many hours on some Saint Seiya RPG for the Gameboy, walking up and down the map endlessly because I wanted to see what will happen when I reach level 99. These days, you can probably just tweak some ROM file and see the result instantly, but I was just a curious kid.

As the years went by, I became more obsessed with time management. If a game requires me to do laps inside a dungeon to beat the next boss, I lose interest. Yet, now that I have become so picky and work focused, once in a while, I actually have these urges to go, "Man, I just want to grind my whole weekend away on some game." Looks like I will always be a gamer. Maybe I am just fatigued and cranky.

As a last question, I am pretty interested in picking up Valkyrie Chronicles 1 for the PC. I know in that game, you can do side missions to level up your classes, so I wanted to ask if this is necessary to beat the game? Is it feasible to complete the game without any grinding? I assume it might be much harder, but at least I wanted to know if it was possible.

Thanks everyone :)!

[Guest]

I like grinding.

For no particular reason. I'm always the one that's gonna complete the game 100% just for the sake of doing so.

Same for MMO's, I'm always the one that loves grinding those skills, reaching max level very quickly only to have a super low level character.

Reaching the max is so satsfying. But that just me

[Flutterz]

Oh, that kind of grinding

Sometimes I like to play something mindless while listening to podcasts or youtube videos or something, in that case I don't want anything with story or complicated gameplay so I play something like Minecraft which is basically grinding. It's also nice to see how much you've improved your stats or whatever after lots of effort.

[ExtraMana]

I like grinding to an extent. Some PS Vita games really overdo it though. I don't want to spend more than an hour grinding to fight a boss tbh fam, I'd rather see something happen in the story from my hours of effort. Then again it depends on the combat. The grinding in a FPS/RPG hybrid can be more fun than some sluggish turn based affair like the Hyperdimension Neptunia series, once you know the attack patterns inside and out it can become a real chore. Grinding shouldn't be an excuse for padding and I think the Vita is probably most guilty of this.

 

[Shikomizue]

I usually like to grind only if it feels rewarding, like if there's something to look forward to if I grind. I also grind with music in the background to occupy myself.

[TK8305]

Grinding can be tedious in most games for me.  I tend to usually cut those out in my LPs.  (Especially for the Pokemon games)

[Justin579]

IF you like grinding destiny will be your favorite game.

[TheFantasm]

If it's constant grinding, I'll lose interest fairly quickly. If it's every other location/dungeon that requires some grinding, I'm usually fine with it. It always helps if the game has a good soundtrack.

[Fred the Barber]

I've put in a very large number of hours grinding in various Disgaea games, usually just to beat extra bosses after the main story completes. There's something about the way grinding is done in the Disgaea series that is very satisfying, at least for me - there are many unique things to grind: character levels, of course, but also seraching out better-quality items, leveling up items, acquiring stat boosts for items, reincarnating and releveling characters to grow their stats, and more. I think I mostly enjoy watching the damage numbers get bigger and bigger. Disgaea is big on exponential curves, so it's not infrequent to level up hundreds of times from killing some super-high-level enemy, nor is it uncommon to switch from your old best weapon to your newly-leveled-up best weapon, and see a 5x or 10x increase in damage. I don't get much out of grinding for 0.5% boosts here and there, which is very common in MMOs, but I do find grinding for this kind of exponential growth very satisfying.

[Justin579]

  On 10/31/2015 at 10:29 PM, Emi said:

Only games i grind anything in is for the loot.

If its just for levels it feels less rewarding to me.

yet games like diablo 2-3 . i've spent about 5000 hours in those 2.

been similar with mmo's. mostly grind for the items. 

diablo TWO(not 3) was a masterpiece though. and nowadays you can use bots. just leave your pc on and boom.

[solidbatman]

Grinding with a purpose is alright by me. For example, extra battles, special weapons, etc. My issue with grinding is when it feels pointless. I'll compare two games here to show what I mean.

Bravely Default is an old fashion jrpg that brings backs the nostalgia of the old SNES Final Fantasy games. This includes the grinding that only serves to pad the length of the game. A game like that, should be able to be beaten by simply not running away from any battles. Instead, I found myself having to constantly seek out battles because I was too under-leveled for portions of the game. Final Fantasy X was similar in this regard. I had to seek out, and grind levels in order to complete the game. Its padding, plain and simple.

Now a game that does grinding right, Persona 3 (and to a lesser extent 4). In the games, a thematic, story related purpose is given to you as a reason to grind levels. To "train" yourselves for the boss battles, which in the games you know exactly when they come. So now you have a specific purpose to go out and grind. On top of that, you are rewarded with new abilities, without having to necessarily level up to gain them. Again, its grinding with a purpose, and while its still time padding, its hidden well, and executed in a manner to make it more enjoyable and meaningful. 

[CeruleanGamer]

I can tolerate the grind if I see progress and improvement no matter how slow.... If i'm grinding for drop chances and if bad luck strikes and I get nothing, then I despise the grind.

[Mikado069]

Actually, for me it depends on the game it self. Some games give you a good experience as you grind and some are not. I used to grind to the max level in most rpg games like Star Ocean series (SO2 was my first), this game was different

Because, the max level for most RPG at that time was 99, but this game was 255, the first time I saw LV 100, I had the desire to continue on and try to reach the max level. But, for other games like Suikoden, I didn't care much about grinding

Levels as long as I beat them game. SO2 had a nice system for leveling your special attacks, as you level up the attack, the property (and the look for some) changes, it motivated me to continue leveling those skills to max.

When I played Disgaea 1 on ps2, I got a numerical-orgasm from those high numbers. This game starts when you finish the main story. I mean, the max level was 9999, different than all of my old games.

In MMO games, I just grind while doing quests/client orders. A good example is PSO2.

[Equestrian_Gamer]

Pretty much the only games I enjoyed grinding on is the Persona series, in which I needed to be a certain level in order to get the better personas, and Poke'mon, so I could evolve all my poke'mon and collect them all. Other than that, it can feel like a bit of a grind (yes, I went there) but I don't really mind it too much.

[Chronopolis]

It's the feeling of working towards something, and the feeling of progress. I'm likely to enjoy grinding when the art/music/aesthetics are nice. I thing grinding generally causes you to associate yourself with the work you put in. So if you feel the importance and excitement in the characters, that makes grinding feel purposeful, which feedback.

If the game lets me pick my play-style or make a somewhat unique character, it's easy for me to attach my efforts to that (working on my style of playthrough, or my somewhat distinct character.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Chronopolis

[Rose]

I scrolled down the whole thread kinda quickly so I might have missed it, but in case no one answered about VC: yes, you can finish the game without grinding for levels. I believe the game is much more about positioning and strategy, but grinding will naturally make things easier.

I particularly am a fan of grinding if done right, and overall just enjoy trying to be as efficient as possible. How can I chain my spells or combo my attacks to make this mob/group of mobs go down faster? Which enemies should I focus down first in order to take the least amount of damage, thus allowing me to go for the next group without having to stop and heal myself? I basically just love being efficient. =D

[InvertMouse]

Awesome answers everyone! And thank you for the response on VC Rose. I reckon I will give the game a shot, then :).

[Narcosis]

Topic title made me cringe.

Grinding is an godawful mechanic, introduced to walk around the design limitations in most role playing oriented games; it allows for easy level-based content progression and artificially bloats the game content by tricking people into beliving they're actually doing something meaningful, while in reality they're just forced to remain in one spot for countless hours, hitting a single type of mob, over and over again.

[Zebhra]

It is okay if it's not taking more than an hour to get desired piece, for like in Dakr Souls i grinded dem titanite chunks for a couple of hours to upgrade my equipment...was it fun? Not really. Is it worth it? Totally. So..it depends on how much results and satisfaction you get after given period of grinding.

Another example i played a Ragnarok (MMO) some years ago and one of the most precious things there is a cards ( 0.01% drop rate) and i farmed one card (Thara frog, reduce damage taken from plares by 30%) for about a month, i was killing ~500 frogs per hour and i played around 4 hrs a day which means aproximately 500*4*30 = ~60000 frogs killed, and you know what? i didnt get it.  That kind of grinding i hate

[Valmore]

I usually hate grinding. Unless there's something I can do to make it seem less like grinding, I'll usually avoid games that force it on you. For instance, in Drift Girls (fun game) you can change cars around to complete mastery of each car and change waifus around to complete their levels. It feels less like grinding that way.

[Suzu Fanatic]

As someone that used to play Everquest I laugh at peoples' general concept of grinding. Rookies

That being said, I enjoy it to see my stats slowly rise - being able to take out things I really shouldn't be able to for the area I'm in - trying to beat "unbeatable" encounters in the story (assuming not locked completely to a fail script).

Plus sometimes it's just a way for me to chill out and relax, turn my brain off and/or listen to music/talk to people irl.

[Narcosis]

Saying "it's no fun, but totally worth it" remains the exact kind of giving the devs consent to continue, what they've been getting away with for the past 15 years or so. You know there's something wrong with a game, when it turns into a second job; it's something that shouldn't even happen, but exactly what modern mmorpg devs want, because it turns in profit, especially in terms of f2p business models.

It's not really even a matter, whether f2p is better than p2p (protip: it isn't; it's just better suited for modern industry business), but a matter of market oversaturation and incredible competition, which forces devs to support their games rather via cash shops, than subscription fees they can't even fully rely on; it's because subscription based gaming requires a lot bigger commitment (both financial and psychological), while cash shops often sell instant gratification most players long for so much. It's that "no hands tied, no responsibility taken" business, that made mmorpg's go down the drain and created the modern market.

[kingdomcome]

  On 11/3/2015 at 7:52 AM, Narcosis said:

Saying "it's no fun, but totally worth it" remains the exact kind of giving the devs consent to continue, what they've been getting away with for the past 15 years or so. You know there's something wrong with a game, when it turns into a second job; it's something that shouldn't even happen, but exactly what modern mmorpg devs want, because it turns in profit, especially in terms of f2p business models.

 

I think you're exactly right.

I like to use the RPG "Knights of the Old Republic" and the MMO "The Old Republic" as an example. KOTOR is a long single player game where you didn't do a single bit of grinding, it was all story driven and extremely fun and interesting. Yet TOR takes longer to complete, but once you take away the grinding missions you're left with about 1/4 or less of actual story driven game play.

Poor excuse to make a game feel longer, this way they can charge a subscription fee and make more $$.

Edited November 3, 2015 by kingdomcome
spelling

[Suzu Fanatic]

"shrug" some don't consider it a "second job" and actually enjoy it - different strokes for different folks and all that~ If it makes life easier for the devs, more power to it, people don't have to force themselves to play grindy games like Disgaea etc, totally their call to walk away and play something else.

 

MMOs are a bit of a different matter though - but "todays" mmos are hardly grindy, hell - I've played some where I leveled to max level in a single week, solo - while still going to work and doing my job during the daytime.

While I would never push my tastes on anyone, I can't help but think people nowadays suffer waaay too much from ADD - and can't stand the idea of devoting any length of time to something that doesn't provide immediate results. "Instant gratification ftw!" it seems like. But, on the plus side for those type, most devs cater to that majority~

[CeruleanGamer]

  On 11/3/2015 at 9:54 AM, Suzu Fanatic said:

"shrug" some don't consider it a "second job" and actually enjoy it - different strokes for different folks and all that~ If it makes life easier for the devs, more power to it, people don't have to force themselves to play grindy games like Disgaea etc, totally their call to walk away and play something else.

 

MMOs are a bit of a different matter though - but "todays" mmos are hardly grindy, hell - I've played some where I leveled to max level in a single week, solo - while still going to work and doing my job during the daytime.

While I would never push my tastes on anyone, I can't help but think people nowadays suffer waaay too much from ADD - and can't stand the idea of devoting any length of time to something that doesn't provide immediate results. "Instant gratification ftw!" it seems like.  But, on the plus side for those type, most devs cater to that majority~

Agreed 100%

And this is also why devs feel the need to make cash shops mandatory and a huge gamechanging point in MMORPGs, with most of you people bitching about the grind. They are exploiting the impatient players who hate grinding by making it easy for you guys with pay2win equipment, EXP boosters, improved drop rates, and all this other crap to make grinding too easy.... If less people complained and were more patient, cash shops in MMOs wouldn't be such a big deal. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by CeruleanGamer