Tokyo Babel Released!

[littleshogun]

If you ask me, I think this is another case of 8.8 trope (Although it's more reviewer was basically noob in VN I think). I read the site, and I think it's reviewed by wrong member, because I saw in the site that they review Clannad at 7 (The complain that Clannad was long) and G-Senjou at 9 (Both of those was by different reviewer though), so I think they should at least recognize what VN is, and the problem from Tokyo Babel review was the reviewer only review the game with gameplay, not Visual Novel which basically had no gameplay. Beside, I think if the reviewer want to review TB in first place, he should at least understand what is VN basically about, or either did some research in regard of Propeller and Mangagamer company to know what kind of game they'll bring at least. Well, at least he review the story quite good I think although a bit cliche, but if he write the review about some VN again and he complained about no gameplay again, I just hope that he quit to write the review forever because it only make him look stupid by not knowing what is VN (Well his review already show that though).

PS - He think it's like digital manga, which made it more questionable if he think like that, why did he bring it to video game review site in the first place.

[Fred the Barber]

2 hours ago, Tyrosyn said:

It's the current year and professional reviewers still don't understand the visual novel medium.

The best thing about the way you said this is that we can quote it directly in a year (and two, and three) without even needing to change it.

[Suzu Fanatic]

I don't know how the whole Metacritic thing works - can Fuwa Reviews be treated the same, and produce scores there? Or does a site have to meet certain criteria?

[Suzu Fanatic]

27 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

"Why don't you include my publication in your panel?

We are always on the lookout for new sources of quality, well-written reviews that are well regarded in the industry or among their peers. Several times throughout the year, we will re-evaluate our current group of publications and make additions and deletions to our panel if necessary. If you feel that your publication deserves inclusion among this elite group, please let us know. Remember, we are only looking for high-quality websites (or print publications)."

Lol, I guess I'm not surprised. Afterall, they clearly only accept expert sources that are well-versed in reviewing various medium thoroughly and without bias

Though in all seriousness, Fuwa Reviews should explore the possibility of getting in (if it hasn't tried already). Fuwa's a fairly well-developed hub of reviewers with actual experience in the medium - it could help the VN localization scene out by providing more insightful standpoints, as a counter to the more-often-then-not ignorant misconceptions VNs come under fire for.

Bah, it really grinds my gears seeing TB receiving such a low score - based on a aspect that should never have been a consideration to begin with. It's like saying a football game sucked becuase the players didn't sing and dance enough.

[littleshogun]

There's another review of Tokyo Babel here courtesy of Hardcore Gamer. From the score, it was 3.5 out of 5 or normally 7 out of 10. For the con, I think it was quite understandable, in regard of romance and fan service. But I think most importantly at least the reviewer knew that this game supposed to be Visual Novel, compared to previous amateur reviewer. Oh, if some of you angry at amateur review previously, I suggest let's just read Hardcore Gamer review to dilute the anger.

[Darklord Rooke]

Quote

Still, there’s this nagging feeling that it could have been even better if it focused more intensely on its best features and less on goofy interludes between the highlights. With some editing to cut down on the padding, Tokyo Babel could have easily been an even better experience. Luckily, the unique premise and religious backdrop ensure that this visual novel stands out from the pack.

I get the feeling you can reuse this 'negative' for almost every Visual Novel released. It is an annoying trait of the medium - they're rarely tightly plotted.

Still a damn good VN, with a damn good translation. Definitely a better review than the previous one.

[Decay]

TB certainly wouldn't have been better with the padding cut. Maybe with it moved around a little? The fast pacing of the second half of each route actually got pretty exhausting. It was fight after fight after fight with barely any time to breathe in between. Besides, those "goofy interludes" were genuinely hilarious, I'd be sad to see them go.

[Tyr]

5 hours ago, Decay said:

TB certainly wouldn't have been better with the padding cut. Maybe with it moved around a little? The fast pacing of the second half of each route actually got pretty exhausting. It was fight after fight after fight with barely any time to breathe in between. Besides, those "goofy interludes" were genuinely hilarious, I'd be sad to see them go.

I quickly dropped this game after encountering these goofy interludes. That's probably a bigger issue than you think.

[Suzu Fanatic]

16 minutes ago, Tyrosyn said:

I quickly dropped this game after encountering these goofy interludes. That's probably a bigger issue than you think.

I disliked the americanization of the dialogue, but still personally enjoyed the various banters. It's subjective taste as opposed to an objective issue. You dropped a real gem - and wasted your money by doing so, assuming you paid for it.

[Tyr]

8 minutes ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

I disliked the americanization of the dialogue, but still personally enjoyed the various banters. It's subjective taste as opposed to an objective issue. You dropped a real gem - and wasted your money by doing so, assuming you paid for it.

I know, but who knows, maybe I try it again sometimes? However, this goofiness is really something I can't stand. I recommended the game to a friend of mine because I wanted to see what he thinks and, guess what, he dropped it after some of the first goofy scenes, couldn't stomach the shift in tone either.
So I think that's actually a valid point the reviewer makes. Not everyone likes to take goofy breaks between the actual good parts.

[Decay]

7 hours ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

I disliked the americanization of the dialogue, but still personally enjoyed the various banters. It's subjective taste as opposed to an objective issue. You dropped a real gem - and wasted your money by doing so, assuming you paid for it.

"Americanization," really? The characters spoke in a very casual manner, but none of it felt distinctly American to me. Most of it was what you'd expect to hear in any English speaking country. So it wasn't so much "Americanization," but "Englishization." Which is a pretty good thing to do in my book when translating something to English.

[Suzu Fanatic]

4 hours ago, Decay said:

"Americanization," really? The characters spoke in a very casual manner, but none of it felt distinctly American to me. Most of it was what you'd expect to hear in any English speaking country. So it wasn't so much "Americanization," but "Englishization." Which is a pretty good thing to do in my book when translating something to English.

I don't know anyone that talks like that irl tbh.

"shrug" irl I tend to be extremely articulate (though likely related to years in my former occupation and surroundings). I found much of TB's dialogue to be very casual/loose, and often filled with slang. Not exactly something you expect from beings millennia old. Despite his lack of personality, I found Setsuna to be the most fitting for the setting itself (and Astaroth) - whereas I found some of Sorami's lines utterly tacky - even way back in highschool I never knew any girls that would say "golly" or "gosh darn" etc.

I understand that it's a "school setting" and so they have to try and emulate the typical linguistics of highschoolers - but I felt it didn't really fit with the nature of the characters or setting. Wasn't enough of an issue to make me hate it or give a bad score - but I still felt it hurt the overall flow. The English language can achieve much higher levels of literacy - though at the risk of alienating those with low literacy, or those that do not have a firm grasp on English.

I would even take a more literal translation, over dudebro English. (not that TB was even remotely that bad, I'm more just saying that as a clarification of my stance in general) I'd prefer the original meaning to be left as intact as possible, rather than re-imagined for the sake of babying certain English-speakers.

Typically it's not something that bothers me in most other VNs I've read (or anime I've watched), for some odd reason - but it stood out in TB.

 

Remember when the first demo for Violet Hills came out a few years back? I recall some people complaining there were too many big words, and that it was linguistically complex - I loved it like that. I was saddened to see them lower the bar (it's still enjoyable, don't get me wrong).

[Decay]

They talk goofily because they are just goofy as hell, even Lilith and Raziel. They're absurd characters no matter which way you slice it, so I don't see it as a bad thing that the translation makes that apparent. As for anachronisms, the only time I really ever noticed them is when the characters are being sort of ironic in some way, which is something people actually do. It never bothered me. 

[Conjueror]

13 hours ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

I don't know anyone that talks like that irl tbh.

"shrug" irl I tend to be extremely articulate (though likely related to years in my former occupation and surroundings). I found much of TB's dialogue to be very casual/loose, and often filled with slang. Not exactly something you expect from beings millennia old. Despite his lack of personality, I found Setsuna to be the most fitting for the setting itself (and Astaroth) - whereas I found some of Sorami's lines utterly tacky - even way back in highschool I never knew any girls that would say "golly" or "gosh darn" etc.

I understand that it's a "school setting" and so they have to try and emulate the typical linguistics of highschoolers - but I felt it didn't really fit with the nature of the characters or setting. Wasn't enough of an issue to make me hate it or give a bad score - but I still felt it hurt the overall flow. The English language can achieve much higher levels of literacy - though at the risk of alienating those with low literacy, or those that do not have a firm grasp on English.

I would even take a more literal translation, over dudebro English. (not that TB was even remotely that bad, I'm more just saying that as a clarification of my stance in general) I'd prefer the original meaning to be left as intact as possible, rather than re-imagined for the sake of babying certain English-speakers.

Typically it's not something that bothers me in most other VNs I've read (or anime I've watched), for some odd reason - but it stood out in TB.

 

Remember when the first demo for Violet Hills came out a few years back? I recall some people complaining there were too many big words, and that it was linguistically complex - I loved it like that. I was saddened to see them lower the bar (it's still enjoyable, don't get me wrong).

You should blame Higashide not us, that's how the character voices were written in Japanese.
We only translated Japanese casual / quirky slang into English casual / quirky slang.

[Suzu Fanatic]

2 hours ago, Conjueror said:

You should blame Higashide not us, that's how the character voices were written in Japanese.
We only translated Japanese casual / quirky slang into English casual / quirky slang.

I was actually thinking that too, tbh - I could tell from the voice acting it has a very loose feeling to begin with   Don't really have a counter other then English looseness apparently bothers me more then Japanese looseness~  Though I was actually fine with how you guys reworked Lilith (with maybe one or two exceptions), so I guess I don't really know wth I want

I mean, I never had such gripes with Ayakashibito - and its TL was just as quirky and loose as TB - so I really have no idea what it is that bugged me about it. Perhaps Ayakashibito's TL was more literal? Or simply a difference in style of English? I'll have to re-read it, to try and figure out why I'd have such a conflicting stance towards two works by the same author.

[Darklord Rooke]

7 hours ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

I mean, I never had such gripes with Ayakashibito - and its TL was just as quirky and loose as TB - so I really have no idea what it is that bugged me about it. Perhaps Ayakashibito's TL was more literal? Or simply a difference in style of English? I'll have to re-read it, to try and figure out why I'd have such a conflicting stance towards two works by the same author.

I've only read bits of it, but from what I've seen Ayakashibito is not a nice read in English. I would say it reads 'poorly', but I have to remember the VN community's definition of 'reads poorly' is 'written in Engrish' and therefore anything above that level is 'better than poor'. I've made that mistake before, and it resulted in a huge argument. Anyway, the translation of Ayakashibito is free so people (and that includes me) shouldn't complain.

[Suzu Fanatic]

12 hours ago, Rooke said:

I've only read bits of it, but from what I've seen Ayakashibito is not a nice read in English. I would say it reads 'poorly', but I have to remember the VN community's definition of 'reads poorly' is 'written in Engrish' and therefore anything above that level is 'better than poor'. I've made that mistake before, and it resulted in a huge argument. Anyway, the translation of Ayakashibito is free so people (and that includes me) shouldn't complain.

Now, I hardly consider myself an English major - but with almost 40 years under my belt, I've had plenty of time to read traditional works (before my eyes reached a point I could no longer~). I'm confident in my literacy enough that I would notice when something does - and does not - "read well". And I like to pretend I have reasonable standards - you may have missed my long-winded post about linguistics and higher English literacy?

 

Regardless, at this point it's just turning into a dick waving contest about taste and opinions. I've actually had to deal with a handful of personal attacks due to my last few posts, so I'm just about fed up with the topic. Anyone with a problem with my (fairly reasonable) stance can fuck off and ignore me - live and let live. And If that causes me to lose respect with people here, to hell with them then.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Suzu Fanatic
Cooled my head~

[Darklord Rooke]

1 hour ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

 I've actually had to deal with a handful of personal attacks due to my last few posts, so I'm just about fed up with the topic. Anyone with a problem with my (fairly reasonable) stance can fuck off and ignore me - live and let live. And If that causes me to lose respect with people here, to hell with them then.

I'd like to think that people on Fuwa would be above launching personal attacks at people because of clashing opinions. If anyone who engaged in that behaviour is reading this post, knock it off. You're being juvenile.

I just reread Suzu’s posts above. Nothing stated should have caused people to get ticked enough to lash out. You may disagree but there shouldn’t be such intense emotions involved. If you did lash out, it’s because you have too much time on your hands. Go and make yourself useful somewhere.

EDIT: It’s funny, that in all the years of being an ‘arsehole’ on the forums no one’s ever tried to abuse me in private. Please give it a go, fellas, I’m feeling left out. And I have an awesome thread idea called ‘People's retarded flame attempts – stupid as well as boring’ that I want to create. Personal attacks have become so mundane in recent times, they’re a virtual yawn fest, broken up with brief periods of laughter due to the ridiculousness of the fellow 'shouting.' Insults used to be much more creative ‘back in the day’. Unfortunately I’m low on examples, so if any of you ‘keyboard warriors’ would like to provide me with some, you know how to PM me.

Thanks in advance.

[Suzu Fanatic]

(next day) Sorry for having been a drama-queen, folks. Patience was tested and I let it out in the wrong place. Embarrassed at my outburst, esp. since not even Sana can crack me, usually (I still enjoy our debates). In the future, I'll just bring such matters to a mod - or more likely I'll just go gank newbies on a pvp server to relieve myself. (not a fan of tattling, I generally try to resolve stuff myself.)

Anyways, to put this thread back on track with zero subtly - here's a pic of the best girl from TB:

[FinalChaos]

Reading the best girl Sorami's route now.

I'm currently at that extremely important lunch-box of doom choice.

Well the route has thus far confirmed my hypothesis that indeed Sorami is the best girl. Though the fact that a lot of stuff will be a repeat of Raziel's route is saddening.

I'll just make a blind guess that the main guy at the end of Sorami's route would be Astaroth, but then I've got no clue how the fight's gonna scale with respect to Raziel's final fight. If it's gonna be flashier and bigger than the first route I wonder what'll happen.    

As for the pacing, the second half of Raziel's route did indeed feel a bit rushed.  

[littleshogun]

Thanks for the playlist, mod zenophilious. And if you feel that Tokyo Babel OST was good, then what Clephas said was true, no bad OST in propeller games, or Tokyo Babel in this case.

[littleshogun]

I just visited Mangagamer twitter and find the link to another Tokyo Babel review, and this time from Operation Rain Fall blog. This time the review was split into 2 pages, so I'll give the link for page 1 and page 2. I think this review is the most positive one other than from Fuwanovel in regard of Tokyo Babel after English release. If some of you not satisfied reading previous 2 reviews (Especially the first one), I think this review will more satisfying. One more thing, at this time Tokyo Babel Bayesian score was at 7.48 and I must said it was quite big jump compared to previous month. Well, either way I'm glad Tokyo Babel was accepted in English speaking community.

[Decay]

The bayesian rating takes into account the number of votes. So even if the actual average stays the same, as long as more people vote that way, the bayesian rating rises. 

Although from what I can tell, the actual average has risen by about 0.20 in the last few weeks.

[littleshogun]

Guess I learned another new thing today. So it depend on the vote I supposed. Actually, as far as VNDB rating I always use Bayesian one, because if we sort VNDB list from the score it'll be listing Bayesian one instead of average one. But I think both score should be good indicator of how good VN is (Most of the time anyway). Oh, and about average score Tokyo Babel was indeed raise up to 7.94 at this time (I forget how much the average score back before English release, but I still remember that Bayesian score for Tokyo Babel was around 7.0 or somewhere around that before English release).

[Decay]

I would argue that user scores are NEVER a good indicator for quality.