Nasu-verse Discussion(spoilers to everything Nasu-verse related)

[Kosakyun]

Well I just want to see what Happens to Iliya after the Holy Grail is summoned. I remember that she died in at least 2 routes, one of them being HF, the rest I don't really recall.

 

I just want to see(basically make theories about it ) if it would be possible to use the Holy Grail and Iliya still live, since she is the vessel.

 

Interesting question.

From what I know, Illya dies in Unlimited Blade Works and Heaven's Feel.

UBW, since her heart is taken by force by Gilgamesh, and Heaven's Feel, since she sacrificed herself to save Shirou's soul and transfer it into another vessel or body.

Also, I remember someone saying that the Einzbern ladies were always fated to die. This being due to the fact that their bodies are made with the goal of creating the ideal vessel for the Holy Grail. That's due to the Einzbern Family bearing the responsibility of creating a vessel for the Holy Grail for each war. Due to this, that someone also states that the vessel shall also cease all bodily functions once the ritual for the Holy Grail is completed, serving its purpose as the vessel of the Holy Grail. This can also be supported by the fact that once a Servant is killed, the soul of that Servant is taken in by the vessel of the Holy Grail, which is the Einzbern lady. Of course, a normal human can't possibly bear the magical energy of even one heroic spirit. Even though the Einzbern ladies are not necessarily human, they will still break down from the large amount of magical energy that these heroic spirits possess. An example would be Irisviel's worsening condition in Fate/Zero. As more Servants are killed, it seems that she becomes even more weaker. It also doesn't seem to matter whether the vessel is alive or not, seeing that Kirei killed Irisviel before she fully became the Holy Grail. I totally forgot how Illya managed to survive in Fate though. The reason may be the destruction of the Holy Grail. In the route's ending, we remember Saber dealing a final blow to the now-summoned Holy Grail by using Excalibur. The attack might've obliterated the Grail and freed the souls, freeing the body of Illyasviel from the burden of the souls as well. This may be the reason why she was able to live after the events of Fate.

I don't know about someone living after being the vessel for the Holy Grail and someone actually using it. If someone did use it, the Holy Grail would release lots of magical energy which would probably destroy the body. I don't really think anyone would survive if someone used the Holy Grail with their body as the vessel.

[Down]

This being a general topic where we can't assume everyone read everything in the Nasuverse, I think you guys should be using spoilers when you casually drop that "X is gonna die here and there".

[madvanced]

Interesting question.

From what I know, Illya dies in Unlimited Blade Works and Heaven's Feel.

UBW, since her heart is taken by force by Gilgamesh, and Heaven's Feel, since she sacrificed herself to save Shirou's soul and transfer it into another vessel or body.

Also, I remember someone saying that the Einzbern ladies were always fated to die. This being due to the fact that their bodies are made with the goal of creating the ideal vessel for the Holy Grail. That's due to the Einzbern Family bearing the responsibility of creating a vessel for the Holy Grail for each war. Due to this, that someone also states that the vessel shall also cease all bodily functions once the ritual for the Holy Grail is completed, serving its purpose as the vessel of the Holy Grail. This can also be supported by the fact that once a Servant is killed, the soul of that Servant is taken in by the vessel of the Holy Grail, which is the Einzbern lady. Of course, a normal human can't possibly bear the magical energy of even one heroic spirit. Even though the Einzbern ladies are not necessarily human, they will still break down from the large amount of magical energy that these heroic spirits possess. An example would be Irisviel's worsening condition in Fate/Zero. As more Servants are killed, it seems that she becomes even more weaker. It also doesn't seem to matter whether the vessel is alive or not, seeing that Kirei killed Irisviel before she fully became the Holy Grail. I totally forgot how Illya managed to survive in Fate though. The reason may be the destruction of the Holy Grail. In the route's ending, we remember Saber dealing a final blow to the now-summoned Holy Grail by using Excalibur. The attack might've obliterated the Grail and freed the souls, freeing the body of Illyasviel from the burden of the souls as well. This may be the reason why she was able to live after the events of Fate.

I don't know about someone living after being the vessel for the Holy Grail and someone actually using it. If someone did use it, the Holy Grail would release lots of magical energy which would probably destroy the body. I don't really think anyone would survive if someone used the Holy Grail with their body as the vessel.

Well I knew all of that, but here's a loophole on that logic if I recall correctly it was said that the vessel would cease  to be human if 5 servants were taken in by the vessel/Holy Grail, so in Fate as soon as Iliya is used to summon the Holy Grail she should cease to exist, because she wasn't like Sakura and didn't take the power of the Holy Grail for herself she shouldn't have any means to survive, 

 

The only theory that I can come up with is that only the Holy Grail was summoned, not the Great Holy Grail, which would be the one whose power would overwhelm the vessel. However that would also mean that the its power would not be at maximum since only the "normal" Holy Grail was summoned.

 

This being a general topic where we can't assume everyone read everything in the Nasuverse, I think you guys should be using spoilers when you casually drop that "X is gonna die here and there".

Down read the title and the P.S. on the first post... I warned people about a spoiler heavy thread, that's why I said that they should thread(no pun intended) carefully, they could be spoiled out of nowhere.

 

edit: I put spoilers tags for now, so as to not cause grief among anyone, but since this is essentially a spoiler thread, people have no right to complain if they are spoiled. Rather someone coming to a nasu-verse thread without having read F/SN is a bit thoughtless.

[Kaguya]

I thought the gameplay in Fate/Unlimited Codes was kind of weird.

I mean, it didn't naturally chain out in combos. Or at least it didn't feel natural for me.

We all have different tastes though.

I loved playing as all of the characters, seeing each of their individual endings. I also liked making Illya's voice the game's system voice.

My favorite characters there were Leysritt, Saber Lily, and Sakura. For men, it was easily Lancer. The only motivation I had in playing the game was playing as Saber Lily. Saber Lily too cute for me.

But yeah. The cast was more suited to be in a fighting game. I don't know why Tsukihime's cast got the better fighting game though. I mean c'mon. Hisui and Kohaku fighting? They weren't even included in any combat scenes in the visual novels.

Kohaku master race. I think they made for good joke characters. Some other good fighting games tend to have some of these. And who they'd even put in their place? The chair?  

The thread says I can't bash saber. What a pity... Explaining why Sakura is the best fate heroine by process of elimination is my favorite part of nasuverse discussions~

 

Obligatory "why no sacchin route" post that every TM thread should have.

[Kosakyun]

Well I knew all of that, but here's a loophole on that logic if I recall correctly it was said that the vessel would cease  to be human if 5 servants were taken in by the vessel/Holy Grail, so in Fate as soon as Iliya is used to summon the Holy Grail she should cease to exist, because she wasn't like Sakura and didn't take the power of the Holy Grail for herself she shouldn't have any means to survive, 

 

The only theory that I can come up with is that only the Holy Grail was summoned, not the Great Holy Grail, which would be the one whose power would overwhelm the vessel. However that would also mean that the its power would not be at maximum since only the "normal" Holy Grail was summoned.

 

Huh. The only reason I could think of is that Sakura might be sharing the burden with Illya, since although she's an incomplete Holy Grail, she's still a Holy Grail. She still accepts souls of the Servants. At least that's what I think. It would also explain why Illya's body doesn't cease to exist. She shares the burden with another Grail, easing things up.

 

I totally forgot why Illya wore Heaven's Feel in the last few scenes of HF though. Maybe it was to symbolize her acceptance of the Great Holy Grail. After all, Heaven's Feel is the appropriate ceremonial garments for the summoning of the Great Holy Grail as far as I'm concerned.

 

No worries. We'll figure this out. We just have to advance a little more.

 

Kohaku master race. I think they made for good joke characters. Some other good fighting games tend to have some of these. And who they'd even put in their place? The chair? 

 

Kohaku's one of my favorite characters in Melty Blood. She's just so fun to use. Favorite characters in Melty Blood are Arcueid and Kohaku, since fighting games. Best heroine for me is Kohaku though. Hands down.

 

The thread says I can't bash saber. What a pity... Explaining why Sakura is the best fate heroine by process of elimination is my favorite part of nasuverse discussions~

 

Obligatory "why no sacchin route" post that every TM thread should have.

 

We should be able to discuss each heroine's weaknesses, so you can prove your point there. I'm glad to see a fellow Sakurafag here though. It seems that we have similar tastes in heroines.

 

It ain't obligatory anymore though, since the remake will have one.

 

ETA of remake: 2020

[madvanced]

The thread says I can't bash saber. What a pity... Explaining why Sakura is the best fate heroine by process of elimination is my favorite part of nasuverse discussions~

 

Obligatory "why no sacchin route" post that every TM thread should have.

Kaguya you can by all means say why you like or dislike certain characters, as long as the bashing isn't mindless. (i.e. Saber is shit, just because I like Rin more)

 

Well the Sacchin route post is a rite of passage for every TM thread.

 

btw #KohakuMasterRace is legit.

 

Huh. The only reason I could think of is that Sakura might be sharing the burden with Illya, since although she's an incomplete Holy Grail, she's still a Holy Grail. She still accepts souls of the Servants. At least that's what I think. It would also explain why Illya's body doesn't cease to exist. She shares the burden with another Grail, easing things up.

 

I totally forgot why Illya wore Heaven's Feel in the last few scenes of HF though. Maybe it was to symbolize her acceptance of the Great Holy Grail. After all, Heaven's Feel is the appropriate ceremonial garments for the summoning of the Great Holy Grail as far as I'm concerned.

 

No worries. We'll figure this out. We just have to advance a little more.

I was speaking more about Fate, in relation to which Grail was summoned, rather than HF. Because if Iliya is able to survive a Grail summon without any interference by Sakura on Fate, it means that the Grail summoned was the "normal" one rather than the Great one, that is by my assumptions.

 

Now, in HF Iliya wore the dress Heaven's Feel because that's the rite necessary to become a full-fledged vessel and use the Great Holy Grail. By my assumptions if Sakura didn't interfere and she didn't had a part of the Holy Grail to herself it may have had enough power to make a complete use of the Third Magic and maybe save herself. However this is a huge "if".

[Kosakyun]

I was speaking more about Fate, in relation to which Grail was summoned, rather than HF. Because if Iliya is able to survive a Grail summon without any interference by Sakura on Fate, it means that the Grail summoned was the "normal" one rather than the Great one, that is by my assumptions.

 

Now, in HF Iliya wore the dress Heaven's Feel because that's the rite necessary to become a full-fledged vessel and use the Great Holy Grail. By my assumptions if Sakura didn't interfere and she didn't had a part of the Holy Grail to herself it may have had enough power to make a complete use of the Third Magic and maybe save herself. However this is a huge "if".

 

Yeah. Which is why we need to finish Fate as soon as possible. I'm itching to see what we're talking about.

 

Now, in the case of Illya, I don't know if it's even possible to perform the Third Magic on herself even if Sakura hadn't interfered. I mean, Illya's currently a mass of souls. If she were to perform the Third Magic, she'd need to let go of all the souls inside of her and locate her own soul, then proceed to transferring it to another body. I'm not sure about that process, but that's the gist of it at least. With that many souls in her, it would be hard to actually locate hers and isolate it from all the rest. Also take into account the fact that Illya would be the one performing the magic, meaning she'll need to channel the magical energy herself and stuff. This would not change depending on the magical energy used, whether it's hers or it's the Great Holy Grail's. Of course, these mysteries would be further put to light if we continue reading.

 

I'll be taking my leave for today. I still need to read.

[Kaguya]

Kohaku's one of my favorite characters in Melty Blood. She's just so fun to use. Favorite characters in Melty Blood are Arcueid and Kohaku, since fighting games. Best heroine for me is Kohaku though. Hands down.

 

We should be able to discuss each heroine's weaknesses, so you can prove your point there. I'm glad to see a fellow Sakurafag here though. It seems that we have similar tastes in heroines.

 

It ain't obligatory anymore though, since the remake will have one.

 

ETA of remake: 2020

2020? You're surely optimistic. If they're lucky, maybe your grandchildren will be able to play it.

 

Saber annoys me greatly... I love servant types, so I had high expectations when I heard the "I'll be your sword" stuff. She's just an annoying knight with the #lolmorality, though. If I was in Shirou's position, she'd hate me far more than she disliked Kiritsugu, I'm sure. I'm also sure the feelings would be reciprocated. 

 

I also harbor a dislike for ojou-sama types and tsunderes... Any "I'm in charge" heroine is just doomed to earn my contempt and a silent prayer that they'll die in a fire. I'm forgiving of yanderes, though.

 

I love Sakura's "senpai, please notice me" act. It's just so adorable. 

 

Yes, Kohaku is indeed the best tsukihime heroine. That said, I liked all of the tsukihime heroines besides Ciel. Akiha managed to escape my contempt with her yandere tendencies (and the fact that her tsundere never annoyed me, for whatever reason. Unexpected, I'm very sensitive with that type of thing), Arcuied was just a great all-around character, I'm sure you don't need me to explain why I liked Hisui and Ciel... Well, she was an ok heroine, but I didn't like her. The stunt she pulled in her route's end left me less than amused.                               

[madvanced]

2020? You're surely optimistic. If they're lucky, maybe your grandchildren will be able to play it.

 

Saber annoys me greatly... I love servant types, so I had high expectations when I heard the "I'll be your sword" stuff. She's just an annoying knight with the #lolmorality, though. If I was in Shirou's position, she'd hate me far more than she disliked Kiritsugu, I'm sure. I'm also sure the feelings would be reciprocated. 

 

I also harbor a dislike for ojou-sama types and tsunderes... Any "I'm in charge" heroine is just doomed to earn my contempt and a silent prayer that they'll die in a fire. I'm forgiving of yanderes, though.

 

I love Sakura's "senpai, please notice me" act. It's just so adorable. 

 

Yes, Kohaku is indeed the best tsukihime heroine. That said, I liked all of the tsukihime heroines besides Ciel. Akiha managed to escape my contempt with her yandere tendencies (and the fact that her tsundere never annoyed me, for whatever reason. Unexpected, I'm very sensitive with that type of thing), Arcuied was just a great all-around character, I'm sure you don't need me to explain why I liked Hisui and Ciel... Well, she was an ok heroine, but I didn't like her. The stunt she pulled in her route's end left me less than amused.                               

[Down]

I kinda have the opposite train of thoughts about heroines. Usually, by default I like all the characters, and once in a while I'll dislike one. Usually the MC. But even Shirou I ended up somewhat liking so...

 

That being said I find the Tsukihime cast much, much superior to the F/SN cast. And the KnK cast too, can't beat Shiki and Touko.

But I couldn't possibly say that one heroine is better than the others in Tsukihime, they all have their interesting specificities :3

[Kaguya]

I can see where you're coming from, but there's only one thing that amuses me in your logic Kaguya. That is liking Akiha and disliking Rin.

 

Sure Akiha has those yandere tendencies due to her bloodline, however Rin is not nowhere as much of an Ojou-sama and tsundere as Akiha is. also the "I'm in charge" type of stuff is normal to happen in Rin's case since she is an exceptional magus. Overall she is more approachable and more all-rounded personality wise, comparing to Akiha.

 

I say this about Akiha, but she is my favorite Tsukihime heroine along side Kohaku.

 

But to each his own Kaguya . I just found your train of though rather amusing.

[madvanced]

To top if off, I also dislike imoutos. I think I'm ok with Akiha because it's very easy to identify with her, while I couldn't get that feeling at all from Rin. Her powers are also cooler.

I just found that Rin was more approachable in the way that she appears to be perfect yet she always makes mistakes(mostly producing adorable reactions out of her). In that way Akiha seemed to be a distant person all together in Tsukihime, well sure she was as deredere as possible(for her that is) to Shiki, but I still felt that she was too much of a distant person.

 

But yeah power-wise Akiha > Rin.

[Kaguya]

Now then, for the inevitable power level discussions...

Which servants do you think could defeat Arcueid at full power, if any? 

[madvanced]

Now then, for the inevitable power level discussions...

Which servants do you think could defeat Arcueid at full power, if any? 

Berserker and Gilgamesh definitely, Saber maybe because her sword is a holy one.

 

Lancer's Gae Bolg is inefficient in killing something that doesn't die by having it's heart pierced.

 

Archer is a maybe, while he could use most of his power like Gilgamesh, he is still a faker so I don't know if his projections would work as good as original Noble Phantasms.

 

Regarding Rider, it would definitely have to do with which Divine Mystery would be bigger a True Ancestor or a Pegasus.

 

I don't think that either of the Assassins would be able to defeat Arcueid, even with the Fake's Tsubame Gaeshi, Arcueid could just recover and counter-attack.

 

The only one which I don't really know how it would fare it would be Caster.

[Nerathim]

Now then, for the inevitable power level discussions...

Which servants do you think could defeat Arcueid at full power, if any? 

Other than servants... Aoko ? She's good at nothing except destruction, and damn what a level of destruction she has. Not to mention fifth magic.

[Kaguya]

I'd really like to see a fight between Gawain and Arcueid in that weird period of time where both the sun and the moon are in the sky. It would make for one of the most epic battles in the franchise. A pity it doesn't happen. 

 

Arcueid participates in the grail war with no access to most of her abilities and an incompetent master in Fate/Extra in the berserker class and she proves to be very challenging to most people. That kinda makes me believe she'd be able to win against most servants. 

 

I think she'd lose to Gilgamesh, but I think she should be in par with most berserkers in terms of pure destruction power. Add her annoying abilities and the Marble Phantasm and I think she should be able to leave a lot of servant battles victorious.

 

Other than servants... Aoko ? She's good at nothing except destruction, and damn what a level of destruction she has. Not to mention fifth magic.

 

I don't know if Aoko would win against her, but she can probably deal significant damage, since Arcueid wanted to avoid meeting her at all during tsukihime.

[Toranth]

Now then, for the inevitable power level discussions...

Which servants do you think could defeat Arcueid at full power, if any?

None. Period. Nasu has, in fact, said so.

Remember, Arc is less of an individual and more of a theological concept. Mere humans, even legendary heroes, can't compete (baring a few special cases, ie the Magicians).

There's an entire forum community devoted to the Nasu-verse, btw, for those that don't know: The Beast's Lair.

[Nerathim]

I think Aoko can do something similar to time travel, though.

[ServeTheServant]

Now then, for the inevitable power level discussions...

Which servants do you think could defeat Arcueid at full power, if any?

None. Period. Nasu has, in fact, said so.

To expand on this, the exact Nasu quote I found from the wiki (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Servant#cite_note-strength-35) is "Against one Servant, Arc would probably win, but against two, while Arc's having trouble against the one, the other could get behind her and nail her... maybe."

[madvanced]

None. Period. Nasu has, in fact, said so.

Remember, Arc is less of an individual and more of a theological concept. Mere humans, even legendary heroes, can't compete (baring a few special cases, ie the Magicians).

There's an entire forum community devoted to the Nasu-verse, btw, for those that don't know: The Beast's Lair.

[Kaguya]

Beast's Lair is a pretty known fact .

 

Now I don't believe it's a no, because Arcueid isn't an absolute being, and if you include magicians(users of True Magic) F/SN's Caster uses magic on the basic level of True magics since she is from the Age of the Gods, and is able to use a language from said time used for magic.

 

Also Arcuied is around 800 years old, Rider's Pegasus far surpasses Arcuied as a Divine Mystery, since Rider's pegasus has already reached defense equal to a Dragon, the strongest Phantasmal Species. So you could say that using Bellerophon Rider could eliminate Arcueid. A Divine Mystery can only be defeated by a greater Divine Mystery.

[Clephas]

Shiki is capable of killing Arcueid by cutting off her connection to the Earth, even at night.  Also, though Arcueid is technically more powerful than the Servants, she is using most of her power to restrain her bloodlust, so...

 

Edit:  Ryougi Shiki would probably have even fewer problems with Arcueid, considering how much more powerful her eyes are.

[Kaguya]

Shiki is capable of killing Arcueid by cutting off her connection to the Earth, even at night.  Also, though Arcueid is technically more powerful than the Servants, she is using most of her power to restrain her bloodlust, so...

[madvanced]

If Nasu says your ordinary servant has about 1/4th of Arcueid in power, I'd assume she'd be able to beat rider without too much of an issue.... Doesn't Shiki kill a dragon during his fight with Nrvnqsr? He can't see her lines at night, though. I think she has the edge when it comes to defense as well as offense.

[Kaguya]

Yes but that is accounting for the servants own strength, the Pegasus that Rider uses far surpasses her own power, the Pegasus isn't a servant, it's a Phantasmal race just like the True Ancestors, and Rider's Pegasus is of the highest caliber, aka older than any true ancestor which does play a role in it's power. That 's the very reason why it's basically on the level of a dragon.

 

Also iirc Nrvnqsr has no Phantasmal Race in his body the most powerful animal he possesses is a T-Rex. That was the very reason why he could hold 666 lives in himself, because they were animal lifes inferior to those of humans, if it was with any Phantasmal race which by definition are greater than humans, the concept known as Nrvnqsr would cease to exist.