Boon

Hm, I'm not a big gamer, but here goes... Mass Effect trilogy. Period. Probably the best American game in the CYOA genre, despite the occasional flaws in its writing. Telltale Games' The Walking Dead, the closest thing to a visual novel utsuge in American media. And boy, utsuge indeed... Dragon Age: Origins. Come on, you can't possibly talk about American video games with multiple routes, branching storyline and lots of choices without mentioning this game. Next to Mass Effect, it's like the definitive CYOA video game for the modern day gamers. Its epic story that easily surpasses all three ME games really helps too. The rest of the video games on the list are not in order, as I don't really have as much an emotional attachment to them as the three games above. Serious Sam: The First and Second Encounter. Monster-bashing fun. Hitman: Contracts and Hitman: Blood Money. Killing simulation FTW. Screw Absolution. GTA IV. Despite being a fun game, I don't love it as much as many people do. Looking forward to GTA V for PC though. Star Wars: The Old Republic. Again, dialogue-simulation fun. Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions. So much this. I love the alternate Spidey-stories. The other Spider-Man games just don't have the same sense of wonderment that comes with a comic book as this game does. Also, Spider-Man Noir FTW. Pokemon: RBY/FR/LG. Come on, you can't talk games without mentioning this. And the G1 games are good enough for me. Halo: Combat Evolved. The rest of the games are so-so to me, getting more tired of it as the franchise goes on.

Probably due to cultural clash, but I found tsunderes to be particularly annoying, even when they're written to be likable (like Kyou from Clannad or Rin from F/SN). And a full-blown tsundere act without any room for seriousness (even Kyou and Rin had their moments of seriousness in the common route)? That can be rather intolerable if any sane person thinks about it... That said, it might be a cultural thing. Maybe Japanese find tsunderes/idiot girls to be very appealing.

Well, yeah, technically, you're right. She was portrayed as a joke character, but the fact of the matter is, when you've reached her route in the VN, I know right? Especially towards Westerners in particular. I mean, come on, I know Americans' got problems, but we're hardly saints ourselves by judging others as such.

Me too. Which is why I don't like it when my favorite characters get turned into a joke character (*stares at avatar*...).

I respect Rin's pragmatic self a lot too, but why don't you like her anymore? What did you mean by 'something possessing her body'? lol Do you mean that the picture Itsurakoriuki posted badly depicted Rin? The tsundere side might seem silly, but it's all in good fun, mate. haha I personally enjoy her sillier moments anyway, especially those in Carnival Phantasm.

Heh, I still can't get used to tsundere-Rin. I'm more familiar with the all-so-serious pragmatic-Rin who's willing to take cold-hearted actions.

Heh, nothing as glorious as a 'backup team', and a job behind desk might have been much more comfortable. I was merely a storeman. I was in charge of the storage, the logistics, like food and equipment. Of course, my sergeant in command would go on to say how important logistics actually is, and I wouldn't disagree with him too much either. It's actually quite a good fortune, in hindsight. I could have been sent to the frontline, and given my poor physical condition, I wouldn't have been able to adapt quickly.

True... Nevertheless, I just don't like Singaporeans very much, despite being one myself, so making friends with my own countrymen was a lot harder than making friends with foreigners online. They're pragmatic nationalists who blindly consider our country to be better than others. Nothing wrong with a little patriotism, I guess, but it so reminds me of the same blind-patriotism of America, and that's certainly not an example to follow. No offense to fellow Americans intended. If anything, I much preferred America to my homeland when I was a kid, causing these nationalists to consider me as some sort of 'hipster' who favors America over his own country. Naturally, that didn't help me fit in much. I guess. Some people aren't meant to bear such scars, though. They lack the conviction, the willpower to overcome them. They lack character. And then they turn into a cliche villain with delusions of grandeur to compensate for their 'tragic past.' Ah, dammit. Sorry if I'm laying on the melodrama too much. This is just how I deal with it whenever I talk about my past. I can be very self-conscious about these things. Yes, but I largely stayed away from them. I was excused from live ammunition due to being diagnosed with anxieties. My bunkmates laughingly thought that it was because they were afraid I'd go crazy and kill everyone or something.

I understand the feeling, though it doesn't really bother me as much unless it's a VN meant to have one coherent story told through one play-through, as opposed to multiple routes with multiple sub-plots that could be enjoyed on your own time. It's a difference between Little Busters! (which ties together the multiple routes nicely by the end of the VN) and Grisaia no Kajitsu (of which its multiple routes felt more like standalone stories so far, same goes for Katawa Shoujo). I get what you mean though. It doesn't feel nice to have the story experience cut up into little portions. But ultimately, these things are merely a matter of personal preference. Ugh, it was dreadful. Psychologically traumatic, and I wouldn't really be exaggerating much on that part either. Forced conscription tends to leave a country with a patriarch mentality... your stereotypical 'macho man' discipline, if you will. I didn't make many friends there, though to be fair, that's more attributed to my anti-social personality than the working environment itself. I just have problems dealing with people on a general level. And in an environment like the army that forces you to work together or be ousted as some kind of social-loser, it might as well be Hell on Earth. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit... a tiny bit. But it was awful. It really left a scar on my mind. I was forced to be this subservient little guy, and my sergeant in command was such a pain in the hardass. Sigh. I'd rather not talk about it. So many painful memories.

Thanks to SanadaShadow's recommendation of CoolRom.com, I got myself into playing Pokemon FireRed on an emulator... lol Looks like visual novels will have to be put aside for a little while.

I could say the same for Archer seeking revenge. I could say the same for Sakura feeling the need to restrain herself from hurting people. I could very well say the same for Shirou, who sacrificed everyone's lives for the sake of one (oh wait, doesn't that sound kinds similar to Saber's situation despite Shirou's sacrifice being presented in HF instead of Fate? Hm...) It's a little thing called 'emotions' and 'feelings,' nothing your 'pragmatic' thinking could resolve by explaining it away with hard cold logic. It's very well the same thing as scolding a wounded child, calling him stupid for crying. However, I would hardly compare Saber to a wounded child. If anything, she didn't 'yield to her feelings' like the rest of the cast did, she threw away her feelings for the determination to accomplish a sole aspiration. That's something admirable. Even if you yourself, hsmsful, can't comprehend the value of such things in your mind, I'm pretty sure many people out there knows what I'm talking about. Stop putting idealism together with stupidity. Just because an ideal clashes with your cynical beliefs doesn't make it idiotic or stupid. More info on intelligent idealism at "Good Is Not Dumb." That said, you're correct. We're spamming the thread, but I couldn't very well leave things hanging the way they are in this thread by having your retort being the final retort in this little debate, now could I? If you want to continue this discussion, refrain from replying to this post any further and continue our discussion through a PM. Otherwise, expect a similar reply from me.

Implying that idealism and stupidity are not mutually exclusive. I see we're off to a great start in the debate. If anything, I respect Saber solely because of her hardened idealism. Not many people have the willpower and tolerance to hold true to an oath the way she did, and your cynical excuses hardly qualify her as an idiot. I understand what you're saying. But know that many people over the world suffers from the same psychological barriers that keep them shackled to an oath, a promise, or an aspiration, if not out of sheer determination, it's out of their inability to receive proper closure on their traumatic past. That said, Saber is not any different. It's easily understandable why she would blame herself, as most guilt-ridden people do, which is why I honestly wished she had expressed her guilt through her actions in Fate route to better let us understand her side of the story, her perspectives, what she plans to do with such guilt, etc, etc. That's what I meant by 'showing' over 'telling.' Showing her development as a character through the kind of actions she'd take, perhaps by straying away from her oath by sacrificing a few people? That kind of stuff. Though I could understand somewhat why you're frustrated, I could hardly say I share the same frustration. Her solemn oath, while old-fashioned, is something I would like to see today in our modern world full of grey-areas and hypocrisy. He didn't just 'see it in his dreams.' IIRC, he projected the same sword from his mind. So yes, it's essentially something related to 'the power of imagination,' which is why I share your irritation of Nasu's convenient plot-device as well. Nasu's writing has always been a bit wonky in F/SN (I mean, rape-worms?), but I'm sure someone more devoted to the VN could explain away all these little technicalities with his vast knowledge of the lore and whatnot. Honestly, I couldn't be bothered with the lore and magic spells; I'm more interested in the characters. You gotta admit though, Shirou's defeat of Berserker together with Saber, as implausible as it might be, was rather entertaining and satisfying in its own way. And if something is entertaining, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief a little bit. As do I, though Saber's ending was only 'meh, it's okay' to me, due to the problems I stated with her character development. Also, the blatant cash-in of the Realta Nua 'Extended Ending' is hardly appreciated by me. If anything, it only gives the Saber-haters ammunition to further the irrational scandal that Saber's only decent trait is being Type-Moon's cash-cow.

While that is true, IMO, what you've just said is a very mistaken common misconception. All those things you mentioned in the Fate route, they felt like 'telling' rather than 'showing.' I'm not sure if you are familiar with the storytelling techniques of 'showing' and 'telling', but 'showing' is always better than 'telling,' in the sense that you don't 'tell' your audience about your character, you show them what your character is like through her actions and her interactions with the world and people around her. There wasn't much in the sense of 'showing'. Most of her actions in Fate route had little to do with her past or having any closure to the betrayal of her own people. Most of her actions didn't reflect her beliefs about 'sacrificing people for the greater good,' something she was forced to do for her country. It would have been nice to see if she would do the same thing again in present time if given the same situation, not to mention that it might have given her a much better closure. That's the reason why people never really felt as connected to Saber in Fate route as they did with the other heroines in the other routes. 'Telling' won't really connect your audience on an emotional level as effectively as 'showing,' because actions speak louder than words, and through such actions, we could have at least seen Saber's growth as a person from her time as Arturia to her time as Saber the Servant. Unfortunately, most of her actions were wasted on protecting Shirou from his whiny-ass self. In hindsight, this is really just Nasu's shoddy writing at work, considering that the Fate route was really just the prototype for the real meat of the story, UBW and HF. Well, the same to you then. What made me hate Saber-haters (and just about any shipper-hater, tbh) is their irrational hatred for a character and their equally irrational reasons for hating her. I've came up with more than good enough reasons for justifying my liking for her, yet all I could see from you is frothing and barking because you dislike a fictional character. I get that mindless fanboys can be annoying to some people (though I hardly see the problem with people being overly passionate about the things they love), but at least have the decency to see that some of us actually like her for legitimate reasons.

Yeah, I'm sure her resilient attitude, her undying willpower, and her refusal to be treated like a common woman have nothing to do with why I like her. Honestly, I may not like Saberfags who come up with half-assed excuses to overrate her character, but the half-assed reasons Saber-haters come up with are just as ridiculous sometimes... Edit: Crap. Went for a double-post instead of an edit in the heat of the moment.

I understand why she didn't get any good development in the other routes - that part of understanding was hardly ambiguous in the first place - but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Also, technically, she wasn't 'concentrated on' in Heaven's Feel, only in Fate route. And even in Fate route, half of that so-called 'concentration' is placed on info-dumping, the explanation of the F/SN universe, Shirou's past and Shirou's character development, so it wasn't exactly the 'Saber-centric' route many Saber-haters would like you to think either.

Anyways the VN concentrates on the development of Shirou through his wish to become a superhero and what he chooses for himself But if you take out the character development, you will find that the VN is actually good and I personally didn't like Saber since the start and always hoped for an ending where she is dead heuhuehue What I want to get at is that you should leave out the relationship between the characters because yeah it was done poorly but the story is good, the action and excitement is there and the plot twists make the VN 10 times more amazing. I realized how poorly the relationship between characters is in fate route before playing the other two routes which made me stop concentrating on that and enjoy the "action and thrilling" side of the VN I honestly didn't find Shirou and Saber's relationship in Fate route as bothersome as many others seemed to be. I mean, sure, Shirou was all chauvinistic in that route, but that's natural, given his traditional Japanese mentality. And on the note of the action and excitement, yeah, they were okay, but action and excitement were always my cherry on top, not the entire cream and butter below. I could do without the action and excitement if you just give me a whole chunk of quality character development, thank you. Also, on a sidenote, your kind of negative view towards Saber is kinda the reason why I stopped bothering with F/SN altogether... I don't hate her, but I hate that people who bashed her aren't exactly inaccurate with their criticisms about her being 'blend', even though the truth is, the scenarios Nasu put Saber in made her blend. It's Nasu's writing that made her blend. She's a great stoic character whose potential as a character was painfully unexploited in F/SN. I'd love to just see her clash her philosophical beliefs against Archer on the ethics of saving people in UBW, which didn't really happen at all. Sure, they 'discussed' on the matter to some extent, exchanging words on whether if saving everyone is correct or not, but I really wish to see Saber's actions reflect her words in UBW, having her proving to Archer somehow that 'saving everyone' isn't necessary naive or foolish, which would have been a nice extension to her development in the Fate route. It would have been a much more satisfying wrap-up for Saber, in fact, for she too had sacrifice a lot of people in her time as King Arturia, so it makes for a nice parallel reflection to Archer, who tried not to sacrifice people but having ended up forced to do so anyway. Hell, if you don't want to put in effort to develop Saber, Nasu, give her to me. I seem to be able to write her much better than you do anyway. God, I hope she's much better in the Fate/Zero anime.

lol Yeah, I definitely read somewhere in the walkthrough about this elusive route that's the enriching oppai... Sounds like a real treat. Heh heh heh... Oh, and thanks so much for the emulator advice! God, I've been wanting to play that VN for a long time! I heard so many good things about it, and the '9 doors' part of the story definitely sounds interesting for a non-linear VN. Thanks again!

Hm? An emulator? Do you need to be tech-savvy to know how to use that? 'Coz I'm not... :/ I'm kinda technophobic when it comes to these things, really... heh.

Gotta love that annoying Singapore heat... We don't even have Winter here... Even Japan has Winter. Japan, an Asian country like ours. What's up with that? It's a long time ago, but I've heard some people give some negative feedback regarding Terra... My memory's blurry at best, so I really don't remember what they said, but I think it might have been the usual complaint people give towards such things, like it's too convoluted or whatnot. Not too sure about Akane's route. Like I said, it's quite a while ago. lol But the words of assurance you guys give are good enough to have me pick up the VN again (especially your advice in particular about Terra being worth the entire playthrough, Tenkuru). I just have to sort through the huge chunk of titles on my plan-to-read list...

A great non-linear VN I unfortunately will never have the opportunity to play... until I buy a DS and figure out how to patch the English patch. And with my current financial status, that seems very unlikely...

Thanks for the welcome, everyone. Haha... like I said, I don't really particularly like kinetic novels. I have, however, heard of Narcissu . It was held as a prime example of a good utsuge tearjerker. Have to check it out some time...

It's hard to say. I could easily say that most nukiges I played had shallow stories that bored me to no end, and their h-scenes are cliche and predictable, but other than that, I never got emotionally attached enough to many VNs for me to easily pinpoint down a terrible experience... That said. The worst experience, albeit not necessarily a bad one, was probably Fate/Stay Night. Like I explained in my intro thread, I don't really like VNs that leave an ambiguity as to the fate (no pun intended) of the heroines that are not the main focus of the route you're reading. Kanon had a much more terrible ambiguity than F/SN, as far as I'm concerned, but Fate did an especially terrible job on my feelings because I got rather attached to Saber and she... well... it's a general consensus that not a lot of people like Saber for justified reasons, mostly because of how weak the Fate route was written. I mean, oh sure, you could find thousands of Saber fans everywhere, but a lot of them are shippers who only liked her for her moe moments or just for the sake of liking her. It feels silly, really. I'm always one to get overly attached in an emotional way to fictional characters, so even this kind of 'meta' treatment bothers me a whole lot (the same way Miki Sayaka's criticisms once bothered me, till Madoka: Rebellion happened). It's such a frustrating thing to have a character you want to like, but can't find many justified reasons to like her because of the writer's negligence. That's probably why F/SN bothered me more than any other VNs so far, but I'm still a novice VN reader, so the journey ahead might bear further burdens.

That good huh? Alright, I guess I'll put it on my wishlist. lol I can't see the image because zerochan doesn't allow hotlinking. I like Konata though, despite never having watched Lucky Star. It's mostly because of her seiyuu being the same as Haruhi, Hirano-sama. :3 Oh, and I love her Lucy voicing too. And yes, let us be friends.

lol I said that I like the unambiguity of linear VNs that don't have the uncomfortable implications of harem non-linear VNs, not that I like linear VNs as a whole. Little Busters, for example, removed such ambiguity despite being a non-linear VN. Clannad too, but LB! definitely did a more stellar job. Thanks for the recommendation though, but I'm still barely getting my feet wet with non-linear VNs with 'few choices', so I'm probably not going to get used to full-blown linearity any time soon.