Darklord Rooke

Please don't take VNDB's word as gospel. They try and separate all these eroge and Japanese games into its own little category, and then wonder why they have so many problems. Basically we have categories for games which have significant gameplay, and maybe the stigma of VNs will disappear if we stop trying to separate them into its own private little category. Have a pleasant day Nosebleed *waves*.

If the gameplay is integral to the game, then it's NOT a VN. Kamidori is not a VN, it's an RPG. Yes RPG's have stories too, with 'choice and consequences', it's not exactly a new idea or anything. Ace Attorney is not a VN, it's adventure. Blazblue is not a VN, it's a fighting game. True Love isn't a VN, it's a sim. Sengoku Rance is not a VN, it's a turn based strategy game. It has a story, but so what. So does Halo. Stories are an important part of MOST genres these days, having a story doesn't make it a VN. Having ONLY a story with choice and consequences makes your game a VN. The only reason we needed to invent a new category for these games in the West is because we didn't have a category they would fit in, every category already existing had extra gameplay requirements. So a game is only a VN if it's DEVOID of those additional pieces of gameplay, otherwise it goes into it's correct category.

Well, the writer is the same dude who created "Spice and Wolf", which is essentially a slice of life about trading and includes huge amounts of economic stuff. So it's not really surprising he did a VN about stocks XD

It isn't. A visual novel defines a type of gamplay, ADV and NVL are just different techniques of projecting text onto the screen. This changes as time goes by, has no effect on the gameplay and therefore doesn't affect whether something is or is not a visual novel. And don't quote VNDB at me, those people aren't the most clued in people.

Not cool peeps. Although it's the typical sort of juvenile behaviour you find on the internet, so I'm not surprised it happened. You're doing a stellar job OriginalRen, and btw I support Sanah's suggestion for a topic.

As I understand it, it's the Japanese equivalent (I think. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.) They're not predisposed to nukige but they do have different tastes. I'm not a fan of either. To understand whether a game is for you, you really need to read people's opinions on the game you're researching. Just taking a point score is rife with peril. VNs are targeted at a young male audience, both in Japan and here on Fuwa, so right off the bat you're getting a young males perspective on things. This means a lot of things right from the getgo, like for instance their tendency to value ideas and concepts over style (talking about prose here,) and their tendency to devalue certain games right from the outset. It also explains why Monster Girls 3 is ranked right at the top of the RPG/VN list on VNDB....... But I'm not going to go on a long rant about the inadequacies of a point based review system. I'm just going to warn people to not take it too seriously and leave it.

All the creative Western talent probably think 'I could create a groundbreaking VN and sell maybe 10,000 copies, or I could turn that into a groundbreaking adventure game (like "The Walking Dead") and potentially sell millions.'

Don't take VNDB too seriously, working your way through its rating list is like working your way through your typical 'top 50 anime' list. Generally most of the votes are cast by young dudes, so a lot of the stuff up the top is your typical shounen stuff, then you get the pseudo philosophical/psychological/obligatory deep stories, and then you get stuff like monster girl ... The only difference is, in the VN list you also get a lot of games incorrectly defined. Like Blazblue and Ace Attorney. Take the VNDB list with a massive grain of salt and just don't try to understand it.

@Novel21: You probably should make a post on the lemma forums. Lemma is a site for people who want to make VNs, and there's a board there specifically for recruiting people to your project. That being said there are requirements for making a recruitment post. You have to have a fair idea of what your VN will be about (I think). Anyway, check out the lemma forums, and check out what's expected of you when making a recruitment post. http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewforum.php?f=38 EDIT: Even if Sana is helping you, you might want artists or some other people. This artist is free, for example http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=26789

Meaningful choices which affect the game world in real and complex ways would be nice, as opposed to superficial choices and routes which lead to a 'good ending' a 'bad ending' and a 'different girl.'

@Zaka: In the west, people identify games which interest them via the gameplay. Tags like RPG and VN are an important tool for people to understand what the game is delivering to them. VN fans coming in calling everything a VN is annoying. For example, if I look up a list of RPGs I would be unable to find Kamidori Alchemy Meister on that list, even though it's an RPG. I have to hunt under VNs to find them, even though it's not a VN. What's the result? VN fans complaining about Kamidori's gameplay, and RPG fans not being able to find a game which would interest them. I would have thought the crowd of people saying 'everybody only plays this for the tactical combat' would have been a giveaway, but looking at VNDB obviously not. Placing it as a VN just irritates people because it confuses them. @Sana: Rule of thumb - games usually carry elements of more than one genre. Why? Because the core component of visual novels is the story, but it's also one of the components for an adventure game, AND an RPG. So, if the only core gameplay in the game is the 'reading' so to speak, then you may have a VN. But if the core gameplay is reading + tactical RPG combat, then you have a tactical RPG (Fire Emblem) because 'story' is an integral part of the RPG genre. If you have the core gameplay as reading + exploration + solving puzzles, congratulations you have an adventure game (Phoenix Wright.)

Why is everybody so eager to classify everything as a freaking Visual Novel? A few people are starting to get pissed that VN fans are coming in and claiming all the games, especially adventure fans. Most JRPGs have stories delivered in the ADV format, especially older ones, but they're still RPGs. You seem to forget one of the core components of JRPGs these days is the story.

Demon master chris has been deleted from the database http://vndb.org/v13027

You're an intelligent man, use your own head. Eroge stands for erotic game, not erotic visual novel. Visual novel isn't even a category in Japan by the way. Lightning Raidy, for example, is an eroge and an RPG, but NOT a VN. So there goes point 1 for starters EDIT: If you require a game NOT on VNDB to convince you, Demon Master Chris has so few VN elements not even VNDB will include it on the database. Yet it's still an eroge.

@Babiker: If that's the case the dude doesn't know what he's talking about. Please stop taking youtube videos as deliverers of gospel truth.

Love+ is a DS game, observe what Clephas said about portable games.

Used in that context, a sim is a game where you manipulate stats to get a result. In the game Academagia (a magical school game), you study lessons and choose fields you want to specialise in which would up your stats in, for example, a number of different fields of magic or charm techniques. Then when you go on adventures, you can overcome obstacles depending on your stats in certain fields. A dating sim is a specific type of sim where the 'goal' of raising your stats is dating girls. It's nothing to do with VNs, unless you want to call Academagia a VN, and then someone like... oh say Clephas would probably want to murder you (Rooke jests).

I still think 'digital gamebook' is a much better name than 'Visual Novel', but I'm obviously in the tiny, TINY minority

Phoenix Wright is a textbook example of adventure. Adventure = Narrative + exploration + puzzles. An eroge is any game that has H-content, it doesn't have to be a VN. A visual novel is a description of gameplay, eroge describes content.

Amazon is poised to become far more evil than Gamestop could ever hope to be. Anyway I just pre-order my games from this country's Gamestop equivalent.

Cinders needed to sell 2,000 copies at full price ($40k) to be labelled a commercial success, and they hit that mark a year ago. Well before it made it onto Steam. They used most of those profits and funneled them into Solstice. Because they're developing a new game it's not surprising they are in the red. Game development costs money and the profits made from Cinders was never expected to completely fund their next game. That doesn't mean Cinders didn't sell well, because comparitively speaking it did well. 2,000 copies is a lot for VNs. And Cinders was never expected to make it onto Steam in the first place. Moacube should have let the idea die last year. And yes, please by indie games at full price direct from the developer if you can.

That sounds much better. The most common cause of incorrect solutions to social problems is the misdiagnosis of social problems themselves. This obviously lead to solutions which are incorrect because they address the wrong issue. What is the problem, and what are the symptoms of the problem. It requires much thought and much care *glares at Youtube author* EDIT: @Babiker: You misquoted Wiki btw. VNs made up 70% of the PC GAMING MARKET in Japan in 2006, which doesn't say much because the PC market in Japan is quite small.

I am very annoyed at this dude. The situation in Japan is very serious, and stems from a number of complex cultural issues and lifestyle … stuff. I’m very annoyed that this guy is trivialising the problem. Many MANY serious academics have written many papers on the issue. I don’t believe the ‘influence of VNs and dating sims’ was high up on the list of causes. *Takes deep breaths…* *And more deep breaths....*

How much do you know about the VN industry in Japan? VNs are only popular among young males, maybe, but that is all. Popular VNs a decade ago used to top 100,000 copies sold, which is a paltry number. These days, you've done amazing if you sell 30,000 copies, which is ludicrously tiny. Developers are struggling to keep their doors open, people inside the industry are paid abysmally, are you sure you know very much about the industry in Japan? And VNs play an insignificant role. A survey in a Japanese magazine recently said 70% of female widows were HAPPY their partner died. HAPPY. Marriage felt like a prison to them. Marriage counsellors regularly report women unhappy with their partner being the strong Japanese type, devoting all their time to business and spending no time on them. They do not come out and say, 'the dude was having an affair with his Waifu on ze internet.'

I read one of those ‘vaunted’ comments on that Youtube site, by the way. One of those people who agreed with the video in question. This person asked “Why don’t women become less picky?” Yes, that is a very good question. Why, in a country where women rarely see their husbands because they’re away all day working obscene hours as a salaryman, leaving them lonely, and abandoned yet expected to take care of their husband and children by themselves, with no further hope of a serious career path in front of them leaving them financially dependant on their significant other are WOMEN SO GOD-DAMN PICKY? That is a very good question, you utter brain-box! As for the points raised in the video (I'm guessing a little here, no audio remember. But I think I see what this guy is saying.) Women are more ambitious than every before, and recognise that becoming married in Japan means being expected to give up their career. Men are becoming tired of the salarymen life, working godawful hours and never being able to go home, so they're opting out of the system. Women have high standards, requiring a certain income and other things, fewer eligible men means fewer marriages. And that's before we even get to the stuff that's effecting everywhere, like we have a consumer attitude now, we no longer need to have kids for security. Getting married and having kids means less money and time to spend on yourself. All of these things are contributing to the falling marriage rate. These are far more of an influence than VNs, which started as a niche genre and has been in decline for about a decade now.