Zalor

Rocking the long hair man! Now I'm tempted to show my picture... Okay fine I will, but keep in mind this was a crappy photo I had to take in order to take the SAT.

Something I said in another thread perfectly sums up my feelings of School Days: Yes, I am a Freudian and I believe a death drive along with a libidinal drive is fundamental to human nature. Personally I think people hate School Days because they don't want to admit that deep down (really deep) they can relate to Makoto on a subconscious level. Makoto represents everything we repress in ourselves, and therefore each of us doesn't want to admit that we have a bit of Makoto inside of us.

Yeah grammar is fundamental, and honestly I get quite confused when looking at a Japanese sentence since I currently only know hiragana, katakana, and some kanji. I've pretty much been following Aaeru's guide (which I can't link to since the blog is currently down). Aaeru's guide recommends doing RTK before grammar, so that is what I did. Also since I don't have much free time, tackling RTK is more convenient for me than getting into the nitty gritty of grammar. (Personally I plan on learning grammar after RTK) But if you have the time to do both simultaneously, definitely do that.

Knowledge of Kanji is helpful, especially if you are a westerner such as myself. Remembering the Kanji (RTK) is a really helpful book/method to familiarize yourself with them. Keep in mind, RTK will not teach you the 2200 basic use Kanji, but it will familiarize you with them and their most common meanings (since Kanji can have multiple readings). Honestly, I consider RTK a prologue to learning Japanese. It is not neccessary, but doing it will give you a strong head start. I'm currently in the process of doing it, and while I haven't tackled untrnaslated VNs, I have played some Japanese exclusive retro games. While I can't read dialogue or anything, title menus and essential things like settings are doable for me simply from RTK. I definitely don't regret the time I am investing in Kanji before heading onto grammar, vocabulary, etc.

To an extent Quartett! did this, and honestly Quartett showed why ignoring writing for fancy visuals and audio is a bad move. I appreciate Quartett for its unique presentation of art work (it is like a visual novel mixed with a manga), but I found it really hard to enjoy the actual story because the writing was just...meh. The only thing that kept me going was the fancy artwork and visual presentation, but I didn't really enjoy the experience. I mostly just kept with it because I was interested in how it was doing something unique in the medium. But if I had to pick between something like Quarett! with great artwork but weak writing, or something like Narcissu with minimalist artwork but fantastic writing; I would always pick the latter.

I know this thread is aimed more about tropes in VNs, but my real guilty pleasure isn't a trope; it's School Days. Stop laughing, I'm not kidding. School Days is a Freudian dream that satisfies both my libidinal drive and my death drive. Through Makoto I can express my uncensored sexual freedom and then get brutally killed in the end for it. School Days understands me on a completely base and instinctual level.

From what I heard, Dies Irae's reading level is high as hell. I am aiming to start reading untranslated VNs during this summer, but something like that is going to take years before I can even consider to tackle. Nice list though, definitely provides me something to strive for. Edit:

Welcome, and don't worry your English is just fine. Also, there are a good amount of people in this community who have English as a second or third language, so you should feel right at home. If you liked Little Busters, I recommend KEY's first visual novel Kanon. You also might also like Rewrite.

Confession: I never read Kanon. I tried using Sparknotes, but the damn site doesn't summarize VNs. To write my paper on Mai and Sayuri I just read a bunch of reviews and discussions of the episodes (couldn't even be bothered to watch the anime lol). I figured if I wrote a long ass paper on it there would be no way people would find out I never read it. But the paranoia is killing me. I'm a Fraud okay! Time to pack the bags and seek political asylum at the lemmasoft forums. Edit: I may or may not be a few months early for April fools...

Just a question. How strong is your knowledge of Japanese grammar? My understanding is that jumping right into untranslated visual novels can actually be quite effective at learning Japanese so long as you know the grammar.

Well, I can be an example somewhat. When I first got into VNs I read Princess Waltz fairly early on and thought it was like the best thing ever. I initially rated it like an 8 or 9 on VNDB. I recently rediscovered my vndb account and had to edit a lot of my previous ratings due to having read a lot more (and better) VNs since. Now Princess Waltz has a 5.

Yeah, understanding what bad quality is, is actually really important. It allows you to properly evaluate what "good" is. Reading 15 great stories in a row does surprise me (I'm happy for you though), but you can only know they are great by knowing what bad is. You appreciate good even more by knowing it is not bad. Too an extent... I also do agree that good is also good regardless. I swear I was arguing some point of view a few posts ago but now I am just confused, lol. I think my confusion stems from the fact that "good" is a combination of inherit goodness, but also relative goodness. Something is perceived as great, or masterpiece, by both being of high quality, but also by being noticeably better when compared to other works. Hence the reason VNDB recommends you have no more than 3 VNs rated a 10.

Fair point, let me clarify a bit. When I use the term "genre fiction", I refer to works that are defined by their genre, rather than doing more with it. Every story to an extent is classified under some genre, but if the work is good, the genre it is part of doesn't matter anymore. I don't like space operas, but since Legend of the Galactic Heroes was so much more I didn't care what genre it was. I agree with this actually, I suppose too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Too much moege is bad, and too many masterpieces would also be kind of bad.

And As my new member title suggest (finally got 500 post counts ) my view is a lot more staunch and conservative. I wouldn't have a problem with genre fiction, moege's, and other such things if they made up the minority of the market. In my mind these works are like dessert, really nice every once in a while after a main course, but they should not be the main course itself. Works that are more intellectual in nature, I think serve a higher value and should make up the majority of the market, unfortunately it is the other way around. Reactionary and intellectual works make up the minority of the market, and are thus treated as a dessert instead. The only positive about this, is that this then incentivises me to reread and further appreciate such things more. But aside from the rare occasion, I would rather reread something with a lot of thought put into it, then read pure entertainment fiction. I emphasized pure because literature is not boring, it is entertaining as well, but it is also so much more. Ultimately it comes down to this for me. Would I rather read something that challenges my perspectives, biases, and makes me think about my views, and is thus memorable; or do I want to spend time with something forgettable but keeps me temporary entertained? I personally almost always choose the former. Keep in mind that when I use the word literature, I am also referring to thought provoking VNs as well. So there is my unpopular opinion on the matter. Don't lynch me please!

That's actually a really fair point. The visual presentation for an adaption is all relative to the individual work. While I picture that many classics could benefit from minimalism; fantasy and sci-fi stories could actually make good use of visuals.

I think what he is expressing is relevant because he is saying that most people in the VN community are not interested in seeing other people read VNs. Contrary to some popular misconception, VNs are not really games; they are far closer to books. How fun would it be to watch somebody else read? He is also making it clear that this is a very niche medium. Even if you do find a way to make LPing a VN entertaining, you still won't get many views.

Welcome to the community! Action is personally not my genre, but Fate/Stay Night is generally recommended by people who do like action. Also, Tsukihime is often recommended as well, which was actually made by the same people who did Fate/Stay Night.

Completely agree. In the Narcissu notes, the author wrote, "If there is no art, then much more textual information is needed. On the flip side, if there is very little text, then more art is needed". Since books were written with the intention of not needing images, if they were to be adapted, they could benefit from a minimal use of pictures. Something along the lines of Narcissu would be perfect.

@Grep: I am one of those people who would not consider games like Ace Attorney as Visual novels. As Clephas said, to me Visual novels are a story telling medium, hence the reason why I bolded the word novel. Honestly though, the combination of music, visuals and writing makes for an extremely immersive experience. While VNs are not games, they are stories that make you feel like you are in them. So don't expect most visual novels to be like Ace Attorney (because in many ways it is not a VN), but they are still fantastic and I highly recommend further exploring the medium.

It's been almost 4 years since I read Yume Miru Kusuri and I still hate this bitch: Kyoka Nanjou

Clephas, I was hoping you would reply sooner or later. I knew you would have a lot of interesting things to say regarding forums and digital communities. I never had personal experience with social-media where you attach your real life identity, but it overall seems stupid to me. For one, you are correct that these places couldn't care less about online etiquette. I know this because a friend of mine who I keep contact with through E-mail since I don't have a Facebook, initially noted how formal my messages were. I didn't intend them to be that way, all I did was use proper grammar and think about what I wanted to say before sending it. It seems to be that places like FB encourage people to not think before they post (just like how most people don't think before they speak). It maintains a more accurate portrayal of real life communication. This also gets back to your point about how it is difficult to create a solid community based around a hobby; due to too much irrelevant noise. Because social-media such as FB more accurately replicate real life communication, I am not surprised by this. I have had very few in-depth discussion about VNs, anime, or stories with real life friends. The only time in real life I can engage in intelligent discussion about stories and literature is in my classes, but out side of a formal setting like a classroom; it is near impossible. I remember once somebody I was with said, "It is kind of sad how humans always feel compelled to make fun of everything, as if nothing in this world is worth taking seriously". Indeed I find this sad, and the only place I can find people who treat things like VNs and anime seriously are on forums. The slight bit of formality that forums create, seems to be crucial in binding people together around a hobby. Again, I don't think forms are that formal. But the fact that you have to stay on topic in threads and only contribute when you have something of some value or worth to say, is needed to maintain a healthy exchange of ideas. Returning to another reason why I think attaching your real life identity to social media is stupid; it creates dependence. What I mean by dependence is a dependence on trust. To be blunt, I hardly ever publicly say what I think, or reveal something about my self in real life. To a small extent, I learned the hard way that trusting people with personal information is like giving them a means to either black male you with, or harm you. It took quite a bit of time, but I finally do have some friends who I genuinely trust at this point. However, in real life I can control who I reveal information to, FB takes away that control. Or rather, it creates a convenient way to leak information. I hate gossip, and FB encourages such frivolous discussion and drama. At least once a year at my school, there has been some major issue on FB where guidance counselors had to get involved (and then people ask me why I don't have a Facebook, lol). You mentioned that anonymous message boards bring out the worst in humanity, at least on there no serious consequences can result. Mainstream social media is a tool that can bring out the worst of humanity, and it can have major consequences. It gives tremendous power to people. If somebody is very angry at a friend or a former lover, they have easily accessible means to trash that person's reputation. This reminds me of why I started this topic in the first place. I find this site a great place to communicate with people about ideas I care about, but there is a part of me that needs silly, frivolous, and casual contact with people on occasion. Forums don't satisfy this occasional social need of mine. To me regular socializing is like sugar and sweets that are at the top of the food pyramid. Too much is bad (at least for me), but I need some every once in a while.

I've read your entire post a couple of times, and honestly I am a bit lost with what you are arguing. I don't understand what you disagree with (if you're even disagreeing with me)? So I will just clarify what I said and answer your question. Mostly I was citing Freud's critiques of repression in civilized society and how repressing urges without having an outlet will just psychologically screw you up. Repressing desires with no healthy outlet is only ignoring the problem, not solving it. The best way to maintain civilized society is to allow people the freedom to express their sexuality and inherit violence in ways that don't harm others. That way the individual gets satisfied and the group doesn't get injured. Basically I'm in agreement with what Clephas said above me, Hentai is a sexual outlet that harms nobody.